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Congratulations, Ficina. Well predicted. So keep on. :D :'

If we look at the chart, Jupiter is the strongest planet in the chart (he collects dignities through reception by exaltation and triplicity in a night chart) exalting in V, Cancer. The exaltation degree of Jupiter (15) falls on the midpoint between South Node and Sun.
The Sun, L1 and L of hour and day, is in a partile square to his exaltation degree (19 Aries). This obviously played against Dutch.

The correct method of picking the winner was to attribute Jupiter to Spain, and Sun and Moon to Holland. Nobody gets ASC. Superior planets, like Mars, Jupiter and Saturn shall be preferred to inferior ones (Venus, Mercury) and luminaries in matters of battle and sports. Sun in the sign of Jupiter exaltation bestows Jupiter with gold.

R Neptun on ASC is also a good sign for Spain. R Neptun is a co-ruler of Sagittarius.
In attributing rulers to the signs we start from Cancer (Moon) and Leo (Sun) and go on according to the natural sequence of signs - Mercury (Virgo), Venus (Libra), Mars (Scorpio), Jupiter (Sagittarius), Saturn (Capricorn), Uranus (Aquarius), Neptun (Pisces), Pluto (Aries); there are no any other planets, apparently there a couple to be discovered yet to which attribute the rulership of Taurus and Gemini. For this I use Venus and Mercury.
For attributing rulership to retro planets, we count against the flow of signs. R Mercury (Gemini), R Venus (Taurus), R Mars (Aries), R Jupiter (Pisces), R Saturn (Aquarius), R Uranus (Capricorn), R Neptun (Sagittarius), R Pluto (Scorpio); there are no more planets so R Venus and R Mercury goes also for Libra and Gemini.

I have used this system in horaries and with success. For example, if Capricorn is rising and there are R Saturn and R Uranus, I use only R Uranus as the lord of ASC. If Uranus is direct, I use only R Saturn.

182
Thanks, Janis. Congratulations are also due to Mark and Amelia who both went for Spain, using mundane charts. And well done to those of you who said the game would go to extra time. Great contributions all round! :'

P.S. Congrats to Paul, the octopus :lol:

183
Janis wrote:R Neptun on ASC is also a good sign for Spain. R Neptun is a co-ruler of Sagittarius.
Aren't you just a little bit afraid of being thrown in to the sharks? :lol:

I think your way of reckoning up the essential dignities is very good, and thank you for explaining. The Octopus was very interesting and I do hope we have more challenges like this in the future.
http://www.astronor.com

184
Congratulations to all the experts of this unique forum. Ficina, Janis, Goca have given great analysis during the entire world cup. I have learnt a lot from all the experts. Thanks a lot.
Warm Regards,
Rohaan Joshii

185
Well, Andrew, I am keen on experimenting, especially when I am not satisfied with traditional rules. I am an Aquarius with Scorpio ASC, so I like risking and overhauling astrological rules. However, I respect tradition.
I am completely convinced that outer planets have a considerable impact on what's going on. At present we have almost nothing on essential dignities of Transsaturnian planets. I am also convinced that Lily's tables of essential and accidental dignities should be also revised taking into account the outer planets. I am convinced that partile conjunction, square or opposition with Neptun, for example, has the same effect as if with Saturn or Mars. Trine with Uranus or Pluto is a happy one and the planet should get plus like it it is in the case with Venus and Jupiter. Black Moon is also destructive, in particular conjunction. Of course, it needs more testing but I am sure that we will manage to puzzle it out.

Actually, I would like that all will be participating in reviewing the essential and accidental dignities of planets. I believe it is one of the milstones towards a correct prediction.

In the Lily's times all live a simple life and there was no need for other planets. Saturn was the symbol of fate and all were scared. Now all has changed, and seven visible ones cannot embrace the reality of modern life.
The system works the better the more it is based on tradition which proved reliable in past and is capable of integrating modern realities. :' 8)

186
Congratulations to Goca and Ficinia for being sytematic and consistent in their approach and showing no envy or malice towards the Octopus :'

To Janis for being very brave and re-arranging the sign rulership. 8)

I am going to try 'augury' once I find the blue parrot - it seems,there is fossil evidence that 55 million years ago-10million years after the Dinosaurs perished- parrots did exist in Norway.There may be one who was resting following a prolonged squawk when the cold wintery conditions of the last ice age set in- I wish to revive him/her and use for predictions and stop Andrew Bevan from getting the third consecutive prize in predicting Eurovision song contest winner .
:idea:

Source:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1958285 ... exist.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augur

PD

188
MarkC wrote:Aglaya wrote:
I am aware that there are certain rules here and that, at least technically, the placement of a ruler above the horizon brings some extra points

So the Sun is better then? Not necessarily.
Mark
Hi, markC.

I'm a bit late, i've been having some difficulties with my internet connection since Friday. The outcome is already known but, regardless..
I agree with you. I'm looking at the chart for the semi-final match and, not only are both planets weak but the sun is actually much weaker according to Lilly's table of debilities and fortitudes: it only has 2 points whilst saturn has 9 (I may have made some minor mistakes in calculations but it doesn't really matter at this point).
When we include the sects, orientality/occidentality etc. we get two almost equally weak planets.
The reasons why I 'voted' for Spain in the semi-final match are:
-the 7th cusp conjunct regulus
-the lesser benefic sitting on the 7th cusp
-L7 in a position from where it can cast a sextile onto the derived 1st
-the Sun (L7) conjunct the point of exaltation of the Greater Benefic, in mutual reception by exaltation with it (although, there is no aspect between the planets). What looked especially convincing to me was that the Sun was placed inside the 5th (that is where I included the symbolism of the houses) - and conjunct the point of exaltation of the planet that is not only the bringer of Fortune but also the Almuten of the chart.
-the ruler of the 10th inside the 7th

Of course, i also thought that the ruler of the 1st inside the 8th didn't look to good (again, the houses), and that Neptune on the Asc would bring disappointment to german players.Also, as you have already pointed out, L1 cannot see the Ascendant from the 8th cusp.
The main difference between this chart and the chart for the final match was the shape of the Moon because she was very strong in the first chart.

Still, following this logic, Holland should have won yesterday and yet I was almost sure that it wouldn't (maybe I believe Paul the Octopus too much :D ). Of course, as both you and Ficina have already pointed out, we all have a list of methods that we feel most comfortable with and here, being a complete amateur in this branch, i basically approached the chart like any other event chart. I'm looking forward to comparing the outcomes and charts to the notes and remarks made by other astrologers here who have more experience in working with such charts.

Ficina wrote:Hi Aglaya and belated welcome to the Sports forum
Hi, Ficina, and thank you. it 's nice being here! I think I just might start spending more time here, I've been hiding "upstairs" for too long, anyway! :D
I'm not sure about 'rules' and, to be honest, until I started using my 'Nobody gets the Asc' method I never took into consideration whether a significator was above or below the horizon. However, I have been using this as a stand-alone factor in my analyses of all these WC games and, simple though it is, it has worked more often than not.
I noticed this and it does sound very intriguing. i've been going through some of your and Andrew's older posts lately and I find the whole method quite interesting .
When I mentioned the "rules" I was actually referring to what we could call "standard routine" or just standars applicable to certain type of charts rather than strict rules but you probably understood that. I've noticed that some of you have actually come up with real aphorisms so far - I love reading your posts here. :D
Well, in my view there's no right or wrong. It just depends whether you choose to use houses or not in your analysis.
true. In my reply to Mark's post, i actually mentioned this - to me it was just an event chart. Asc ruler is inside the 8th, Desc ruler is inside the 5th...I was only one step away from trying to determine whose goal-keeper is most likely to get married first! :lol:

Andrew Bevan wrote:Holland is the Cancer-ruled country. The solar eclipse is in Cancer. The Octopus has gone for Spain. What does it mean?

That we should ditch astrology and get ourselves two or three healthy and smart octopuses. :lala
Last edited by aglaya on Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Hello Aglaya,

Its interesting that we use such differing methods to get to the same conclusion. You selected Spain to win by assigning them the 7th house?

Like you I am a total novice at this staff. I therefore dont know whether my methodology actually worked or this was just random luck. After all someone had to win! I was strengthened in my view that Spain would win due to the mundane charts. However, that kind of method can hardly be used for every game. I am left wondering if I would have viewed the event chart with the same attitude without that context?

I actually, missed a few points you mentioned favouring the 7th house cusp such as Regulus. Funny, I usually always check out fixed stars! Interesting that the MC was on the third brightest star in the sky- Rigel Kentaurus which is directly linked to the Chiron myth. Certainly with the amount of foul play by Holland the winners were quite wounded but successful!

I am a bit confused though if you selected Spain or Holland to win from the 7th house considerations you mention? I personally thought Spain had to be assigned the ascendant for four reasons:

1 The favourite
2 The colour symbolism linking them to Saturn
3 The mundane connections to Spain's national charts with Aquarius Rising/Scorpio MC.
4 The mundane connection of Holland to the sign of Cancer

I think our different take on things probably come down to a few factors.

Houses
I gave primacy to whole sign house signifiers. So for me the Sun was located in the radical 6th and turned 12th house. Plus while the Moon ruled both the 5th and 6th house by sign division I gave primacy to its sole rulership of the 6th house (whole sign). While both the 8th and 6th are unfortunate houses the 8th is at least not cadent. Thus while I accept both planets were quite poorly placed by house position I gave the nudge to the 8th over 6th house.

Sect
If I recall Lilly doesn't award points for sect so I would point a bit differently from his system. Still both planets fair equally badly in that respect.

New Moon/Eclipse
I also tend to view the new Moon/eclipse as a very unfortunate indicator for the Sun which some others here didn't. The Dutch link to the sign of Cancer strengthened that opinion for me. This has also done nothing to change my view that cazimi planets dont entirely remove the effects of the combustion cycle. Ficina ideas on the Moon being an indicator for the favourite is interesting though. The idea of the Moon eclipsing the Sun's light. Ultimately though this eclipse wasn't visible in South Africa. Equally, I tend to take the differing view that the new Moon is being substantially weakened itself in the process. If accept the link between Holland and Cancer that seems plausible. Plus the Moon was Lord 6.

Essential Dignity
In terms of essential dignity Saturn was in its bounds according to Egyptian terms. Of course those following Ptolemy's terms would find Saturn peregrine here. From my perspective though despite its poor accidental dignity this was a dignified Saturn. Of course as always one can take a different view of things. Utilising Ptolemy's terms Saturn falls in the term of Mars which makes the MC ruler its dispositor for this dignity.

Lots and Nodes
The lot of fortune and lot of spirit in the the 1st indicated Saturn represented the planet with both more luck and initiative here. Plus Saturn disposited the North Node in the 11th house. The place of acquisition ( 11th house from the lot of Fortune) was in Sagittarius. This strengthened the link to Spain as Jupiter is the traditional planet ruling Spain.

Mars in the 8th/Venus in the 8th
I saw this as favouring Saturn. However, being in the 8th I anticipated a lot of difficulties and stress getting there. I am really pleased what I said about the referee turned basically as I suggested. He was judged to have had a poor match and made some very controversial decisions. Most importantly his leniency in not sending off any Dutch players in the first half. Still, he eventually did have to come down in Spain's favour by sending off a player in the second half. In contrast to your appproach I saw Venus on the descendant cusp as unfortunate due to placement in the 8th house by whole sign.

Neptune on the ASC
I think this is what confused me the most. How appropriate! I took this along with the house placement and out of sect location of the planets as indicators the game would remain inconclusive for most of the game. With hindsight I can now see one might see this as the aggressive foul play by Holland which disturbed the usual structure of Spain's game. Equally, the poor refereeing didn't help. Holland were lucky to not have only 9 players on the field by half time.

It will be fun checking out games in future to see whether treasured ideas collapse under the test of match play. I am going to have to get used to getting my hands dirty more often in future!

So on to the Euro 2012!

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

190
Thank you Rohan, PD and Aglaya for your kind comments. I too appreciate all the excellent work Goca and Janis have put into their predictions on these WC threads.

Janis, it sounds like you're exploring some really interesting ideas. Tradition and innovation are both equally welcome here. It's all about finding out what works best.

PD, best of luck with your search for the blue parrot :lol:

191
Well, my personal contribution to disclosing the winner (and runner-up) was pretty lousy this time round, but I don't mind as long as it is in for the learning. I have to post a loss, but my betting account is still up some ?2250 after the Eurovision winning. :)

One of the things that suprizes (and disappoints) me the most is that the beautiful total solar eclipse that travelled across the Pacific up to the latitude of the Brazillian Capital before landing in Argentina - didn't deliver anything obvious to the eye. I suppose the eclipse in Cancer on the day of the final could go under a category of 'Destination South Africa' and then there was the interesting fact of the eclipse during the final.

I mentioned in a previous post the thoughts that crossed my mind when goal-scorer and match-winner Andres Iniesta tore off his shirt after scoring the winning goal and dedicated it to Daniel Jarque, who died of heart failure at the age of 26 during a training-camp on 8. August 2009. This was quite an unexpected signature and representation of the total eclipse of the Sun, and think what it must have meant for the friends and family.

Just to show how poor my prediction was (at least it was an absolute write-off and not something I should pretend to be a half-right), Brazil (my guess) is ruled by Virgo - while the winner was Spain, ruled by Sagittarius (that's a square for sure!). I probably thought Argentina, ruled by Libra, where likely to prove the hardest contestants for the trophy, but then the runners-up were Holland ruled by Cancer - that is another square! :-sk

Considering that Jupiter was in the early degrees of Aries and joined to Uranus, that it is interesting that whether Spain or Holland won the final - it would have been a first time win for either of them.

I find Janis' comments on Neptune, Sagittarius and Spain as thought-provoking, and the theory is not totally unknown, but personally I was stuck with any Neptunian or Piscean link leading to Portugal. Again, the fate of the South American teams continues to bewilder me - because they speak both Spanish and Portugese in that part of the world. MarkC's comments about Neptune on the ascendant and the tournament being coloured by poor referee decisions is quite appropriate (although I think they were up against a hard job). The turmoil of France (Leo, and a solar eclipse) might be given some thought, considering that the were there at the expence of Ireland. But that is just the way the ball rolls...
http://www.astronor.com

192
MarkC wrote:Hello Aglaya,

Its interesting that we use such differing methods to get to the same conclusion. You selected Spain to win by assigning them the 7th house?
Only for the semi-final match. Not for the final.
I probably didn't explain it well, sorry for that.
I mentioned the semi-final chart because it looks a lot like the second (final) chart only, just like you, after comparing the mundane charts with the Sunday chart, I was pretty sure that Spain would win. And yet, if I had followed my initial logic, I should have concluded that Spain would lose the 2nd game (if the Desc team wins the semi/final game, then it should win the final game too. only, Spain doesn't get the Desc in the final chart).

So, like you, I've been asking myself some of these questions too...
I therefore dont know whether my methodology actually worked or this was just random luck....
I am left wondering if I would have viewed the event chart with the same attitude without that context?
Exactly!

But, since we already mentioned the traditional ruler of Spain in our previous posts, it is worth noticing that Jupiter is the strongest planet in essential and accidental dignities in both charts.
I actually, missed a few points you mentioned favouring the 7th house cusp such as Regulus. Funny, I usually always check out fixed stars!
Interestingly, i almost always forget to check them out. :lol:
Houses
I gave primacy to whole sign house signifiers. So for me the Sun was located in the radical 6th and turned 12th house.
Ah, yes, i used Placidus!
Sect
If I recall Lilly doesn't award points for sect so I would point a bit differently from his system. Still both planets fair equally badly in that respect.
He doesn't. But I checked that too and, just like you say, the difference in strength of the two planets remains almost invisible.

Lots and Nodes
The lot of fortune and lot of spirit in the the 1st indicated Saturn represented the planet with both more luck and initiative here. Plus Saturn disposited the North Node in the 11th house.
That is a great point! I did try to focus onto the 11th when you mentioned that system but I didn't really know how exactly its influence should be examined.
With hindsight I can now see one might see this as the aggressive foul play by Holland which disturbed the usual structure of Spain's game. Equally, the poor refereeing didn't help.
So very true. We've seen almost 20 cards and still, Holland was lucky not get even more red cards.
But, I noticed something very interesting!
After the match, I was curious to hear what different experts would have to say about this game and so i checked a few TV shows. Everyone agrees - there were too many mistakes. But, while the experts (referees, ex players, coaches etc.) were analyzing the most dramatic, ugly moment when De Jong kicks Alonso in his chest, one of the guests in the studio, Davor Suker (Golden Boot in France, 1998., 6 goals) said :"Wait! Look where the referee is standing! He didn't see it!" The referee was standing behind Alonso and from that perspective he could not see the 'Mae Geri' kick (probably!). He noticed that something had happened but but not exactly what! I'm sure that had he seen it, he would have pulled the red card out of his pocket. I'm mentioning this because it looks like a real New Moon situation to me. Stressful Sun/Moon aspects can decrease visibility and affect the eye sight. Neptune on the Ascendant only supports this.

Holland were lucky to not have only 9 players on the field by half time.
True, it would have change the course of the whole game.


And, having said that...
Andrew Bevan wrote:Considering that Jupiter was in the early degrees of Aries and joined to Uranus, that it is interesting that whether Spain or Holland won the final - it would have been a first time win for either of them.
That's probably it! Jupiter in Aries joined to Uranus could have also increased the number of injuries!
So on to the Euro 2012!
We'll be experts by that time! :lol:
Last edited by aglaya on Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:07 am, edited 3 times in total.