skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Planetary Speed in Natal
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Tanit
Moderator


Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 1115
Location: California, USA

Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:37 pm    Post subject: Planetary Speed in Natal Reply with quote

I know that speed in horary can be very important, but I have a hard time finding sources on planetary speeds in natal. Have any of you seen fast or slow planets in the natal pointing to anything in particular? If I am repeating a subject already asked about, please reference me to a posting. I have hard time finding what I am looking for in the search engine on this site.

For those of you who might be wondering, the average speeds are as follows:
moon - 13 deg 10 min 16 sec
merc - 0 59 08
venus - 0'59'08
sun - 0'59'08
mars - 0'31'27
jupiter-0'04'59
saturn- 0'02'01

Thanks!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Member


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3508
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Modern astrology doesn't seem to take this into account in nativities. The one exception I can think of is Noel Tyl, who teaches that the astrologer can get a decent handle on overall intelligence based on the speed of Mercury and the Moon. If both are swift in motion, the native has a good mind. I'll leave that to others to verify.

Virtually all traditional authors list planetary speed in natal and every other form of astrology as an accidental dignity. It isn't the strongest dignity but, but it is taken into consideration when weighing the effects of one planet over another. I don't know of any cases where it makes a huge difference in a delineation. It is one of many accidental dignities.

Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Arihant



Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 66
Location: INDIA

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

May be I am sounding bit naive..but I am also eager to know whether
( apparent planetary speeds) , when planet is about to turn Retrograde ( and also when it hovers over a point before turning Direct) are important in Natal?

Is above scenario same as Tanit's query:
Quote:
Have any of you seen fast or slow planets in the natal pointing to anything in particular?

_________________
"You are a Divine expression of the Universe"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Tom
Member


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3508
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lilly lists slow in motion as an accidental debility and gives it a minus 2. He does not mention stationary in his list of dignities and debilities. On page 115 he lists dignities and debilities and stationary is not among them, but if slow in motion is a debility, so is stationary. Swift in motion is a minor accidental dignity.

Last edited by Tom on Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 922
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm reminded of what Kepler wrote in relation to weather astrology.

http://www.hermetics.org/pdf/astrology/Johannes_Kepler_-_Concerning_The_More_Certain_Fundamentals_of_Astrology.pdf
Kepler wrote
Quote:

Thesis 34
Since we see that whatever is slowest in motion can perform the most we deduce the reason why the stationary are so very effective when situated at their apogees. When Mercury stands still it is most effective of all the planets, for being the fastest it also loses the most speed. On the other hand, Saturn in a stationary position has the least effect, because it has little (speed) to lose in the standing still


Perhaps this could also count for natal charts.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kepler is sure contrary to Ibn Ezra [from 120 Aphorisms]:

Quote:
94. The star, which is delayed in its course, corresponds to a man exhausted and lacking strength to go on.

95. The star accelerated in its course is like a young man running.


From what I've seen (which, admittedly, isn't much) Kepler seems to go against quite a bit of the traditional practice.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tracey



Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 61
Location: New Zealand

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Thesis 34
Since we see that whatever is slowest in motion can perform the most we deduce the reason why the stationary are so very effective when situated at their apogees. When Mercury stands still it is most effective of all the planets, for being the fastest it also loses the most speed. On the other hand, Saturn in a stationary position has the least effect, because it has little (speed) to lose in the standing still


This topic is of great interest to me as my son (13) has Mercury stationery retrograde in Cap and he has major issues with writing and spelling and has to have extra lessons. My daughter on the other hand has stationery direct in Gemini and whilst not a brilliant speller and rushes through her work at breakneck speed at school, writes and spells well and grasps concepts quickly. Both are capable at maths As an astrologer-mother seeing their respective Mercuries at both ends of the retrograde spectrums in their charts at birth, made me ultra-aware of their schoolwork and so I have watched carefully and contacted teachers as needed. I wondered if any other astrologers have had children with stationery Mercuries and how they have fared as adults.

Tracey
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Labalance



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm my mercury is retrograde but not stationary, in fact looks like it's moving in reverse pretty quickly. I wonder if that's why I was slow to pick up on reading but after I learned I was voracious. I've also been told that I am very insightful and should let people know what I am thinking. Retrograde would relate to more internal thought...wouldn't it?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 393
Location: Ouro Preto, Brasil

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obviously, it has a great impact on the secondary progressing of a chart, delaying aspects... which delay events (or extends them, depends). That is if you use this (fine in my opinion) technique.

And if swift in motion is a strength, slow is a debility.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1369
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speed of planets depends on their heliacal phase, its position in the epycicle.

Heliacal phase was very important for Ptolemy so in CieloeTerra, the traditional astrological association which follows especially Ptolemy, they teach to consider with great attention planetary phase, which can be guessed by the speed.

It's the first thing they teach to take into consideration; so to their students they ask about speed as first thing.

Now it looks like there are some clones around which don't mention their source (Bezza teachings with his original schemes) so you can find somewhere in English.

Bezza in every case published these schemes in his comment to the first book of Tetrabiblos- it is in Italian, but still in print.

margherita
_________________
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Tom
Member


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3508
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And if swift in motion is a strength, slow is a debility.


This was the point of my original post, but I worded it horribly. I think I"ll change it.

Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 922
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
Kepler is sure contrary to Ibn Ezra [from 120 Aphorisms]:

Quote:
94. The star, which is delayed in its course, corresponds to a man exhausted and lacking strength to go on.

95. The star accelerated in its course is like a young man running.


From what I've seen (which, admittedly, isn't much) Kepler seems to go against quite a bit of the traditional practice.


Untill now I have read less Kepler than I desire to but as far as I know I believe the most contrary of Kepler against traditional practice is about houses and signs and the accompanying meanings like dignities receptions etc. (and his new minor aspects of course).

Perhaps Ibn Ezra's and Kepler's might be 'reconciled' by seeing the station as a moment in which the negative part of the planet becomes most apparent.

In transits I noticed several times that the period of the planetary station when the planet is still close to (the aspect to) a natal point has quite an effect. This can make a Mars or Venus transit to quite a significant one. Perhaps I'm projecting the transits issue too much to natal charts issues but I think that's possible.

For instance now Mars is almost stationary and about to go retrograde. Moreover he is in semi-square aspect to Saturn within one degree of exactness during whole December. I wrote this a month ago in this thread, http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4922 If I may quote myself,
Quote:
I believe we might expect a rather cold december with strong winds and 'dry' snow, especially around Christmas.
Here in the Netherlands it has been cold since last weekend (admittedly the start of December was very wet) with indeed cold northern winds and 'dry' snow (which is quite exceptional) since wednesday/thursday night. This all is close to the Mars station. I actually focused on the exact moments of the semi-square with Saturn which might be less significant in this case. Well We'll see following weeks.1

Okay this above is perhaps not significant for natal charts but I find Tracey's remarks on her children very interesting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1369
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And if swift in motion is a strength, slow is a debility.



It's not exactly like that.
Speed depends on planet phase, it is not independent from it so for example a planet under the Sun beam or combust is very fast, still it is burned.

When the planet is far from the Sun tends to be slow.

Speed, light and distance from the Sun in Ptolemy/Aristotle scheme are strictly connected: we cannot have one without another.


margherita
_________________
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1369
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddy wrote:

In transits I noticed several times that the period of the planetary station when the planet is still close to (the aspect to) a natal point has quite an effect.


I agree too....but generally it seems I agree with you Smile
margherita
_________________
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Arihant



Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 66
Location: INDIA

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gjiada wrote:

It's not exactly like that.
Speed depends on planet phase, it is not independent from it so for example a planet under the Sun beam or combust is very fast, still it is burned.

When the planet is far from the Sun tends to be slow.



So this clearly means these variations in the speed as mentioned above are quite different from apparent slowness in planetary motion during retrogradation , as observed from the Earth.

Isn't it?
_________________
"You are a Divine expression of the Universe"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated