skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
The Life & Work of Vettius Valens
by Deborah Houlding
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Second Marriage in a Horary

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Horary & Electional Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Dima Gur



Joined: 12 Dec 2014
Posts: 72
Location: Israel

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:37 pm    Post subject: Second Marriage in a Horary Reply with quote

Hey all,

Are you familiar with methods to ascertain a second marriage / husband / wife from a horary chart?
And more especially, can we get to the second marriage using derived houses? Seems like an interesting dilemma to me.

I've read on another forum that we should look for the 3d from the 7th but that would be the brother or sister of the spouse as far as I understand it.

We could use some of Anthony Louis' methods:
Second triplicity lord of the 7th.
Second planet by almuten strength from the degree of the DSC.

Anything else you have in mind?
_________________
https://www.gurastro.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1614

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What do you mean by

"a second marriage / husband / wife"

exactly?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Martin Gansten
Moderator


Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 1553
Location: Sweden

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If a querent asks about his/her spouse, no traditional source that I know of states that you should differentiate between a first, second, etc., marriage as a general thing. Of course, in a question that specifically concerns different spouses (or potential spouses), you would need to make a distinction. I suppose triplicity rulers could be useful then, if there are no other obvious clues from the chart (such as two or more planets in the 7th, or one planet occupying it and another ruling it).
_________________
https://astrology.martingansten.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 934

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As mentioned by Martin, I would not make any distinction between a 1st, 2nd etc.
And something would show up with the ASC and ruler in terms of confusion regarding the question like maybe Uranus or Neptune or MercuryR or the ruler Combust etc.

Quote:
I've read on another forum that we should look for the 3d from the 7th but that would be the brother or sister of the spouse as far as I understand it.

This refers to a 5th House way to look at 2 potential candidates. Before being your husband/wife (7th), this person is a lover (5th). So one will be represented by the 5th House, the other one by the 5th from the 5th (9th House). If a 3rd lover, the 5th from the 5th from the 5th (ASC). Ask questions to the querent to see which one best fit the potential lovers.
And one thing I always look at is the Direction of the quesited. If Retrograde, he is not looking forward but over his shoulders especially with Saturn, he has responsibilities, not totally free.

I read somewhere that Krishnamurti has said that the only rule to be followed is to note the sub-lord of the 7th cusp. If the 7th sub-lord is either Mercury or any planet occupying a dual sign or deposited in the constellation of a planet in the dual sign, there will be more then one marriage. But I am not a specialist of Indian astrology and cannot confirm this and cannot say if this applies to Horary.
_________________
Blessings!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dima Gur



Joined: 12 Dec 2014
Posts: 72
Location: Israel

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin: Thx.
I'm familiar with 2 planets in a given house (7th in this case) and then ascribing each of them by likeness to the people involved.
Frawley uses it too.
--
With Triplicity rulers: would you just use the 1st trip ruler as 1st marriage partner and the 2nd as 2nd marriage partner et cetera.
[say: 7th cusp is Aquarius in a night chart which would make Merc signifying the 1st partner, Saturn the 2nd partner and Jupiter the 3d partner]
This would be, more or less, in accordance with what al-Andarzagar propagated, though I don't think he mentions marriage partners in his text.
--
With a planet in the 7th and another one ruling the 7th, to which would you give the first marriage partner and to which the 2nd?
Thought about it a little, and I can't seem to establish a logical process by which I would decide...


Ouranos:
This question stems from me examining a chart of a woman who is in a seemingly bad marriage. Made me wonder how her second marriage would look like if she were to divorce her husband. It's a natal chart, I've to admit, but horary methods may be useful there as well. Horary is versatile.
--
The 5th vs. 7th house approach is interesting. Sometimes, admittingly, lovers don't turn into an additional marriage.
--
My familiarity with vedic is very limited but this methods sounds interesting.
It reminds me that a double-bodied sign on the cusp of the 7th could mean the same thing according to some horary authorities (forgot which).
What is a 'sub-lord' btw?
_________________
https://www.gurastro.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 934

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sub Lord

In Indian astrology they divide each of the 27 constellation into nine parts called Sub Lord (each part owned by one planet). This gives total 243 subs.
Here is the table below
http://www.jupitersweb.com/star--sub-lord-table.html

Martin would be a better teacher on this than me.

As for your question regarding which partner would be represented by the Triplicity Rulers if more than one partner, it would have to do with the age the marriage is happening. Other factors to consider to help out: Planetary Ages (Firdaria), circumambulation through the Bounds, Planets becoming Angular by Primary Directions, Profections and Classical use of the Triplicity Rulers as they pertain to different ages. Below is how Deborah Houlding explains it with examples.
https://www.skyscript.co.uk/triplicities.html
_________________
Blessings!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Martin Gansten
Moderator


Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 1553
Location: Sweden

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never actually used triplicity rulers in a question like that. If someone asked me about leaving one relationship and entering another, my first reaction would be to look for separating and applying aspects formed by the Moon and/or the ruler of the Asc. But every chart is different, so I think the main thing is to be guided by what is actually there.

In a nativity, I would first try to determine whether the chart indicates more than one marriage, and then look at what was going on by direction etc.
_________________
https://astrology.martingansten.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dima Gur



Joined: 12 Dec 2014
Posts: 72
Location: Israel

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin:
Quote:
In a nativity, I would first try to determine whether the chart indicates more than one marriage

How? If may ask.

Ouranos:
Am familiar with Deb's article on trip rulers.
A better fit for what I've meant as in 'triplicity rulers for topics' would be Anthony Louis' article:
https://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2020/05/25/further-reflections-on-triplicity-lords
_________________
https://www.gurastro.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 934

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dima Gur,
Thanks for the link
_________________
Blessings!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Martin Gansten
Moderator


Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 1553
Location: Sweden

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dima Gur wrote:
Martin:
Quote:
In a nativity, I would first try to determine whether the chart indicates more than one marriage

How? If may ask.

Yes, that's a fair question, and not an easy one to answer categorically, since marriage is a social institution that will vary with time and culture. Many of the rules in traditional texts were formulated in Late Antiquity or the Middle Ages, and even Ptolemy mentions the need for considering cultural differences with regard to marriage customs. But in most culturally 'western' societies today, middling afflictions to the significators of marriage (primarily the 7th house and its ruler) tend to play out as divorce rather than early widow(er)hood. Coupled with things like two or more planets in the 7th and/or movable signs, that may indicate remarriage. (I personally consider all these factors in a sidereal zodiac.)

It would be interesting to hear the observations of others on this topic, but perhaps more suitably in some other forum, such as Nativities or Traditional?
_________________
https://astrology.martingansten.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 934

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

- The institution itself of marriage as it relates to the social planets (JU and SA) and the 4th/10th axis. Are they linked to the 7th in some way? Outer planets Uranus, Neptune and Pluto can live happily outside of marriage. Things that were not conceivable in society before their discoveries.
- And generally, Sun and Mars for women, Moon and Venus for men.
- More than 1 planet in the 7th
- Direct and Fast = early marriage or to a young person
- Cadent or fruitful signs points to more than 1 marriage or union
- The Moon linked to the 7th = changes in marriage but well aspected to the Sun = welcomed changes. Not surprising that we find Saturn Exalted in Libra. Marriage requires stability and commitment.
- Detriment of Fall in House 3 or 9 = marriage to a foreigner or in another country. If receiving bad aspects = widowhood. Keep in mind that planets linked to marriage natally in Cadent houses can become Angular by Primary Directions. But cadent houses can also indicate relationships to employees, servants, behind the scene (angular).
_________________
Blessings!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Martin Gansten
Moderator


Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 1553
Location: Sweden

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ouranos wrote:
Outer planets Uranus, Neptune and Pluto can live happily outside of marriage. Things that were not conceivable in society before their discoveries.

Welllllll... The Moon [...] signifies, in nativities of men, [...] living together or legal marriage (Valens, Anthologies, I 1,4). Live-in relationships without formal marriage were certainly more universally frowned upon in the modern west even decades after the discovery of Pluto in 1930 (not to mention Uranus in the late 18th century and Neptune in the mid-19th) than they were in the classical world.
_________________
https://astrology.martingansten.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dima Gur



Joined: 12 Dec 2014
Posts: 72
Location: Israel

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin
Here's the new thread in the nativities forum:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=121960

Ouranus
Can you clarify what your list is about?
Different indications for number and/or types of marriages according to different chart factors, with a particular emphasis on the 7th cusp and its ruler?
_________________
https://www.gurastro.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 934

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
with a particular emphasis on the 7th cusp and its ruler?


Yes
_________________
Blessings!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 1232

Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this a question of currently being married and marrying someone at the same time as the current one, or marrying after the ending of a different marriage? If it is a polygamous relationship I would follow the above information but if one is just asking about a new marriage, you would use traditional rules of a relationship chart without involving such complexity. Or, if perhaps if one is comparing the current spouse to a new potential partner.

The same is true for any subject. For comparison, when one is looking for a new job they don't go to great lengths to analyze the current job and the new job. How many jobs does one have in their life and why does it matter when asking a horary? The only time I would compare is if it involved a move/great change or decision between two, in which case I would use a "stay or go" chart where the ascendant is the current situation and the 7th is the new one (and the derived houses represent the areas of life).

If this is simply a question of how many marriages/qualities of the marriage, many traditional authors have rules you can use. The natal chart is usually used for this but horary could be also. Lilly stated the following in Christian Astrology:

Quote:
Behold from the degree of the tenth house to the degree of Mars, and so many Planets as you shall find between them, so many Husbands shall she have;
But if Mars be in the eleventh house, then look from Mars to Jupiter, and judge accordingly: some judge from Mars to the Lord of the tenth;
These rules are Arabicall: plurality of Husbands is best adjudged from the Lord of the seventh and Sun, Mars being in common Signes, or many Planets in the seventh, or Sun in sextile or trine to many Planets in the seventh, argues plurality, or more than one.


Usually for males Venus and Moon are more important. Keep in mind the traditionalists didn't analyze gay relationships and any text on the matter are offensive to read.

In my experience, these rules don't always work that well. They might show potential for marriage(s) but I believe people ultimately have choices. With horary it's generally more useful to ask about something significant in your life in the current or near future (and sometimes the past).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Horary & Electional Astrology All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated