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Real Utility: Timing Techniques

 
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Franzschubert



Joined: 30 Jan 2022
Posts: 2

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:00 pm    Post subject: Real Utility: Timing Techniques Reply with quote

What's the most reliable timing technique you've bumped into? What was your first exposure to it, and what made you start employing it in your practice? What anecdotes have you been most impressed by?

To share my own take here: After some time now spent on profections, transits, planetary years/days, primary directions, triplicity lords, ZR, SR charts, and a few others I've dabbled in (but mostly profections, primary directions, SR charts, transits), I've been a bit underwhelmed ultimately with the results. Whatever success I've had with predicting particular occurrences (and there have been a few) are so few that I may as well chalk them up to base intuition/happenstance.

The most practically reliable/impressive indicators I've thus far run into have been profections (specifically annual profections from asc and sect light), which are 90% of the time good indicators for the general flavor/theme of any given year I'm looking at. But, having spent many hundreds of hours researching and attempting to utilize the others, the results have been a tad bit underwhelming to say the least. Even profections don't do what they're supposedly meant to as far as activated planetary transits go, which more often than not -even when all traditional indicators suggest otherwise- do absolutely nothing even during the most extreme transits.

There are supposedly methods out there for predictions of a more concrete nature, but at least with all of the western techniques I've thus far come across- I have yet to find one that works for me in that way. *All* (without exception) praises/assessments of *any* of these techniques accessible online (that I am aware of) are exercises in post-hoc rationalizations (or at least they can be construed as such) rather than actually floating predictions+documenting the realization of the outcome.

How much time does the average traditionalist/predictive astrologer spend reading such material? X thing happens to Y native/thing, Z astrologer writes up a 10 page dissertation explaining why it is that their particular assortment of astrological factors explain why X happened to Y in the manner that it did, with no one delineation of the sort looking anything like the next. These are of course entertaining reads, but is anyone actually getting it right out there?

Is there anyone reading this that has been able to escape this rut, or knows of someone who has? There are many staunch proponents of X or Y techniques (see: Z astrologer(s)) who after many years of proselytizing the merits of their preferred technique still don't seem to be able to actually apply them toward accurate event/outcome delineations. Besides the few who do it for the grift, why is this? From where do they derive the motivation to, year after year, keep engaging with the same techniques that never bare fruit?

The veidics seem to have a better reputation for accuracy in this respect than western traditionalists do, but that's just the impression I've gotten over the years. Many stories told through the grapevine of veidic astrologers predicting exact dates of marriage, death, property acquisition, precise illnesses, when it's going to rain etc. I myself have dabbled in the dasha system and have certainly found it to be quite accurate, but not any moreso I would say than annual profections or ZR. Hard to say.

Some of the more militant proponents of "free will" won't like me saying this, but the fact of the matter is that -If from a chart a seasoned astrologer can accurately discern significant features of temperament/constitution/history in a native without knowing them (and this much is empirically observable)- then it follows that predicting real future events/outcome(s) shouldn't be too far off. And yet it certainly seems to be. Why?


Is it the case that the relatively few fragments of insight from older sources that we have to work are still decades away from being refined to a practically functional condition? If so, would it not be more expedient for people to move over to the veidic system which seems to have done a better job at preserving itself over the years in its ability to provide real world utility in the modern age?

Any book recommendations anyone has to go along with this topic, feel free to share them here as well.
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Franzschubert



Joined: 30 Jan 2022
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sidenote: But I'm very happy to finally be here!

This community is awesome. I've been lurking for a few years now and recommend it to every astrologer I know as being the preeminent forum for all things astrology.
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What's the most reliable timing technique you've bumped into? What was your first exposure to it, and what made you start employing it in your practice? What anecdotes have you been most impressed by?


I would say midpoints. They work over and over. A lot of the information you find in 'Rules for Planetary Pictures' of Alfred Witte or even Reinhold Ebertin 'The Combination of Stellar Influences' were gathered by observation of day-to-day experiences. Witte would say to his students to carry a notebook to write down the time when events would happen on a daily basis.
"Don’t take the "Rules" too literally. Avoid interpretations of sorrow with this astrology of tomorrow." - - Ludwig Rudolph, frontispiece to Rules for Planetary Pictures."

"Uranian astrology which by most people’s standard is very much like Medieval and being rigidly deterministic and very event oriented." Robert Hand
https://theastrologypodcast.com/transcripts/ep-12-reconciling-modern-and-traditional-astrology/

This system helped me narrow down my mother's death within a couple of days when the midpoint MA/SA came into her natal Sun, even without knowing her birth time.

Quote:
<To share my own take here: After some time now spent on profections, transits, planetary years/days, primary directions, triplicity lords, ZR, SR charts, and a few others I've dabbled in (but mostly profections, primary directions, SR charts, transits), I've been a bit underwhelmed ultimately with the results. Whatever success I've had with predicting particular occurrences (and there have been a few) are so few that I may as well chalk them up to base intuition/happenstance.>


Of all the systems you mention, if I had to keep one, it would be Primary Directions. This system is unique to your chart and your location and it was widely used by ancient astrologers. It is the true motion of the Earth.

In a lecture in 2005, 'L'auto-créativité des Astrologues', André Barbault said:
'Astrology is originally a creation of the Psyche or issued from it, a system coming from the human soul. In fact, without knowing it, the astrologer weaves his own starry robe out of the fabric of astrology, in order to come up with an identity as an astrologer in the very image of his own astralities. The more accurately the astrologer interprets – letting it speak in a perfect rendering of the syntax of astral language – the more he hides behind astrology....
The astrologer accomplishes himself by “astrologizing”. It is first of all how he is created that he creates his own astrology, that he recreates it.'
Further...
'And it is not surprising that, among other things, the Sun was honored among those who carried out the heliocentric revolution: those of Copernicus and Galileo are superimposed in Pisces, place of infinity values, and those of Tycho -Brahé, Kepler and Newton overlap in Capricorn, a sign of rigor and mathematical abstraction. From time to time, I wander through my notebook of astronomical themes (about a hundred) to observe significant encounters there.
For example, it was Johann Bode who gave the name Uranus to the planet discovered by Herschel; now, this astronomer has Uranus of Aquarius in the Midheaven and conjunct with the Sun. Just as Copernicus has his Sun in the Descendant, place of assignment of what is opposite the self and has the value of an object, it is Neptune (Ruler of the Sun) who is there in that of Le Verrier. And while the Neptune of Galle is in opposition to the luminaries, his Neptunian misfortune being known. It is still significant that the inventor of the spectroheliograph, the fundamental instrument for the study of the Sun, Henri Deslandres, has the star in its sign and at the Ascendant... In sum, whether the stars are treated as subject or as object does not change the reflection we receive from them.
It is therefore profitable to look back on oneself, to engage in self-analysis to discover one's astrological identity, which is a way of clarifying the unveiling of one's interpretative act. A way also to become aware of his presence in this exercise.'

http://andrebarbault.com/Fondements.aspx

Which is a lifelong task. If you come up with the idea that you know nothing after studying astrology for 50 years, you are at the right place. Gazing at the stars will bring you to a place of humility in front of the Universe.

Quote:
<There are supposedly methods out there for predictions of a more concrete nature, but at least with all of the western techniques I've thus far come across- I have yet to find one that works for me in that way. *All* (without exception) praises/assessments of *any* of these techniques accessible online (that I am aware of) are exercises in post-hoc rationalizations (or at least they can be construed as such) rather than actually floating predictions+documenting the realization of the outcome.>


ROBERT HAND: 'It is my belief that the most pure and direct manifestation of a transit as when you experienced it inwardly and for lots of complicated reasons people frequently don’t. The most reliable manifestation people get from transits is the change of mood or feeling. External events are much more negotiable but it is very hard for example not to feel somewhat somber during Saturn transiting opposition the Moon whatever maybe happening in your world. If you are just going to be talking about the transit then you really are primarily struck with the personality or psychologically oriented interpretation.
You have Neptune going over the Sun in the 10th house. That would be Pisces nowadays. Here is the question: Does this mean your job is about to get screwy? Or your father or mother are about to get need to be taking care very badly? Or are you going to have a major spiritual awareness experience it would change your life direction? And the answer is ‘Yes’. It could be any of those.
And while the more you invoke the other methods of traditional astrology the more you can narrow this down somewhat but you can never get it to one scenario... Unless the person has made choices in the past that make only one scenario possible.'
In the same interview Chris Brennan quoting Robert Zoller "‘Astrology allows you to know things that you shouldn’t otherwise be able to know. But it doesn’t provide omniscience.’

Even modern science is unable to explain why astrology works. One of the reasons may be due first to the fact that to study astrology, it is necessary to appeal to very different disciplines (physics, psychology, neurosciences, biology, history, etc.). It is indeed a global work of synthesis which makes it possible to bring out a profile of the person in front of us.
And we are limited by our own culture, language, family, our history and the world we live in.

Regarding the Vedic system you mention...
Robert Hand: 'Now, some of the reasons for the differences between ancient Medieval on one hand and Hindu I would also put in the same category and modern western astrology is due to the fact that there is a humongous cultural difference between our present time and the time is then.
One of my favorite examples is if you see a young woman in her teens having extremely romantic and sexually oriented configurations in her chart, if she were born in India that would mean she was not to get married. If she was born here, it means she is having her first affair and maybe not even teens but you know the culture dictates, the traditional Indian culture dictates of that be marriage or basically you are doomed and ours has a variety of approaches.'

Looking at a marriage in India means that you would have to look at the 4th/10th axis because of the importance of the family and the community and their say on the marriage. As opposed to 1st/7th axis in the Western world.

Welcome aboard Franzschubert! And best to you!
Ouranos
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Martin Gansten
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Joined: 05 Jul 2008
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Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 5:43 am    Post subject: Re: Real Utility: Timing Techniques Reply with quote

Your concern about most available examples of predictive techniques being made after the fact is a legitimate one. I freely admit that even in my own books, such is the case in most (though not all) instances. Of course hindsight is easier, but there are other reasons as well, one being that once a prediction has been made to a client, it is not at all certain that the astrologer will get any feedback, particularly if the prediction was made years in advance.

One way around that problem may be looking at instances of 'postdiction'. As you ask for anecdotes, let me give two brief and similar examples from my own practice:

A woman from southern Europe wanted a natal reading and had given, among other events, the date of her wedding as a means of verifying the time of birth. Looking at it, I saw the ascendant being directed through the terms of Venus to the trine of the Moon (ruler of the 7th); but it was simultaneously directed to the body of Saturn with latitude. I told her that there must have been some major cause of unhappiness at the same time that she hadn't told me about, and she replied: 'Yes: I didn't love my husband and didn't want to marry him, I only did it to get away from my mother and grandmother. I felt that I had no choice in the matter.'

Another client, a man from a Muslim background, had also given his wedding date, and the directions matched (the Moon was directed through the terms of Jupiter to the trine of Venus); but in the revolution, Saturn as ruler of the year was in the 7th with Venus applying to it by square. So I asked if there had been any obstacle to the marriage, perhaps cold feet on his own part as Saturn ruled the natal ascendant. He then told me that he had had no experience of sexual intimacy prior to the wedding night, and at the crucial time he simply felt no desire, a fact which for obvious reasons couldn't be concealed and which upset his wife so much that they actually considered annulling the marriage there and then. (They didn't, and things later improved.)

To give at least one example of an actual prediction, still involving Saturn, here is one from my latest book: noticing (among other indications) Saturn as natal ruler of the 4th on the IC of someone's annual revolution and just about to enter the terms of the directed ascendant in retrograde motion, I said that while I hoped that no danger would befall his parents in that year, if it did, it would most probably be around the time of Saturn's station. About two months later, his father died unexpectedly from sepsis within two days of the station.

Summing up, I find the traditional package deal that you mention (primary directions, profections, revolutions and transits) to work rather well. But I should add that, like the Persian and early Arabic astrologers, I use these techniques in a sidereal zodiac, which affects directions through the terms and the time of the revolution, and of course things like dignities and rulerships.
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Dima Gur



Joined: 12 Dec 2014
Posts: 72
Location: Israel

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2022 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With clients I always check several techniques, at least three.
With myself as well, though my success rate is greater with clients.
I try to look for common denominators, in terms of predictive technique results. Also to get a 'general sense' of what's in store for the client, and piecing everything together using info I've got from the client concerning 'the issues'.

Which techniques? I use quite a lot an often switch to try different things out. Just see which techniques you gravitate towards, from the established ones.

In this sense horary and electional readings are more simple, as the focus there is only on one modality.
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