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narcissists and scapegoats

 
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:19 pm    Post subject: narcissists and scapegoats Reply with quote

i was trying to understand this concept from an astrological point of view... it is easy for me to take the ideas and try to put them in some sort of symbolic astrological context, but i was very curious of how others here would do this... and i may be wrong in my quick astro characterizations..

something came up for me a few months ago where a friend of mine was essentially treated as the scapegoat by an organization i have some association with...

i tend to think these are traits that we all have on a type of spectrum... some people are more extreme examples, but generally they form some part of all of us.. so, in this sense, the astrological symbolism must come into this in some way! but what is it??

essentially i tend to think anyone treated like a scapegoat is given a saturn type role to play, but this might be wrong and i might be limiting my viewpoint here... perhaps from my limited understanding of this concept, ketu or uranus might fit into it as well, or any of the outer planets for that matter - given the person who is treated as a scapegoat is generally viewed as ''different'' or not fitting in, in the usual manner...

as for the narcissist astrologically - perhaps a weak moon, or difficult saturn might fit the description here... maybe rahu is captured somewhat... i am still learning to incorporate the nodes into the symbolism more generally.. some kiind of stunted emotional development seems connected to the narcissist traits from what i read....

here are a couple of articles that might be useful to this conversation..

https://unfilteredd.net/why-do-narcissists-need-a-scapegoat/

https://www.differentbrains.org/narcissists-and-scapegoats-a-comparison-of-traits-and-behaviors/

https://nikhelbig.at/scapegoating-in-groups-and-families/

quote from the last article -
"The aggression that is latent in the group becomes disowned by the individuals (who do not want to be blamed for their group’s destruction), and transferred on to an external object of blame. This object of blame is the scapegoat."



thoughts anyone? thanks....
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Archaeoastronomer



Joined: 25 Jan 2022
Posts: 179
Location: London

Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James,
I have a difficult Saturn, so will be careful not to be a scapegoat Ha Ha!

I think you could have more success with small groups than larger ones, then it gets more difficult to find the reasons, everyone wants to belong, sometimes with something that is wrong, and can get hypnotized by a common goal.
A prime example would be W.W.1.
In order to understand exactly what went wrong back in the Summer 1914, we need to examine the key alliances that happened between 1879 and 1907, ending with the Triple Entente.

In fact these treaties were alliances that the major nations signed in fear of each other declaring war, yet made all of Europe vulnerable to a terrorist attack, bringing the major nations into a dance of death and a war that most didn't want.

At the end of the war Germany become the scapegoat and were made to pay huge payments. This paved the way for a Narcissist to emerge and cause a war 20 years later.

I think large groups can gather and become hypnotized by a common goal that they know is wrong.
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Michael Sternbach
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Joined: 01 Mar 2014
Posts: 785
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 4:54 pm    Post subject: Re: narcissists and scapegoats Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
i was trying to understand this concept from an astrological point of view... it is easy for me to take the ideas and try to put them in some sort of symbolic astrological context, but i was very curious of how others here would do this... and i may be wrong in my quick astro characterizations..

something came up for me a few months ago where a friend of mine was essentially treated as the scapegoat by an organization i have some association with...

i tend to think these are traits that we all have on a type of spectrum... some people are more extreme examples, but generally they form some part of all of us.. so, in this sense, the astrological symbolism must come into this in some way! but what is it??

essentially i tend to think anyone treated like a scapegoat is given a saturn type role to play, but this might be wrong and i might be limiting my viewpoint here... perhaps from my limited understanding of this concept, ketu or uranus might fit into it as well, or any of the outer planets for that matter - given the person who is treated as a scapegoat is generally viewed as ''different'' or not fitting in, in the usual manner...

as for the narcissist astrologically - perhaps a weak moon, or difficult saturn might fit the description here... maybe rahu is captured somewhat... i am still learning to incorporate the nodes into the symbolism more generally.. some kiind of stunted emotional development seems connected to the narcissist traits from what i read....

here are a couple of articles that might be useful to this conversation..

https://unfilteredd.net/why-do-narcissists-need-a-scapegoat/

https://www.differentbrains.org/narcissists-and-scapegoats-a-comparison-of-traits-and-behaviors/

https://nikhelbig.at/scapegoating-in-groups-and-families/

quote from the last article -
"The aggression that is latent in the group becomes disowned by the individuals (who do not want to be blamed for their group’s destruction), and transferred on to an external object of blame. This object of blame is the scapegoat."



thoughts anyone? thanks....


Hi James,

I know one full-blown narcissist who was born during a solar eclipse. Both Saturn and Jupiter are prevalent factors in her chart as well.

Generally, I believe that the Moon approaching her conjunction with the Sun could be conducive to narcissistic traits. As this might make it difficult for the Native to see themself with a degree of objectivity. Any real narcissist will go to great lengths avoiding that!

Cheers
Michael
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

archi and michael,

thanks for sharing some of your thoughts on this.. i tend to think these descriptions are on a spectrum and maybe we all have some of this in us, like we all have some of the planets in us, or however you want to imagine that.. as opposed to someone being all 90 degrees hard any of these personality types, most people are a little bit of all of them.. but i don't want to generalize to the point the terms are no longer useful!

i am fairly certain that someone i interact with is a narcissist... the chart is sun-jupiter conjunction opposed by mars.. i think that is the defining astro signature for this particular person with regard to this.. theres more, but that's the quick overview on my one example..
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Michael Sternbach
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Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
archi and michael,

thanks for sharing some of your thoughts on this.. i tend to think these descriptions are on a spectrum and maybe we all have some of this in us, like we all have some of the planets in us, or however you want to imagine that.. as opposed to someone being all 90 degrees hard any of these personality types, most people are a little bit of all of them.. but i don't want to generalize to the point the terms are no longer useful!


James,

I agree, many of us have certain narcissistic personality traits, just as most of us may show some neurotic or addictive behaviour patterns, and what-have-you... However, there is a world of difference between that and an actual personality disorder dominating an individual's life and their relationships with others. And that's what narcissism is!

I did a fair amount of reading on this topic myself. Narcissism as a so-called clinical manifestation is surprisingly well defined. And the lady I mentioned before ticks all the boxes, down to the typical hobbies...

A great source for learning more is Quora. As a subscriber, you can read numerous topics most of which were started by people desperately trying to recover from their intimate involvement with a narcissist that left them in a shambles. A relationship with a full fledged narcissist invariably goes through three stages that can be described as "love bombing", devaluation and discard, and the latter two are anything but pretty - especially in their stark contrast to the initial one!

Quote:
i am fairly certain that someone i interact with is a narcissist... the chart is sun-jupiter conjunction opposed by mars.. i think that is the defining astro signature for this particular person with regard to this.. theres more, but that's the quick overview on my one example..


Jupiter probably frequently plays a role regarding the self-aggrandizing side of the narcissistic personality. But Saturn may be significant as well (as you mentioned in your previous post), because underlying their exuberant emotional life is a deep insecurity and (characteristically) a lack of true affection received at an early age.

May I ask how the planets are distributed in your acquaintance's chart? Any remarkable pattern there?
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks michael

i also believe you are correct in that these traits can fall into real personality disorders that are very difficult to deal with.. my impression is that often these people have no clue that their is a disorder either!

i only have a day chart for the person in question - june 25th, 1954... the planets are all bundled together, with the exception of mars with mars as a wonky handle to the bundle. alternatively you could look at it like a bowl chart with no handle... i will leave the location out so as to remain very opaque here, but if one is using tropical zodiac they could include the moon position given sun cancer... alternatively, sidereal puts mercury in gemini ruling over the sun-jupiter conjunction... mercury is just in the process of going retrograde and conjunct ketu, so perhaps the sidereal chart is more problematic for different reasons...

what is the birth date for the example you shared if you are comfortable to share it? thanks..
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Michael Sternbach
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Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
thanks michael

i also believe you are correct in that these traits can fall into real personality disorders that are very difficult to deal with.. my impression is that often these people have no clue that their is a disorder either!

i only have a day chart for the person in question - june 25th, 1954... the planets are all bundled together, with the exception of mars with mars as a wonky handle to the bundle.


Very interesting. In my example, all planets are bundled together as well, with the exception of Saturn on the opposite side of the zodiac, thus acting as what is called a "tension ruler" ("Spannungsherrscher") in some schools of Astrology.

Quote:
alternatively you could look at it like a bowl chart with no handle... i will leave the location out so as to remain very opaque here, but if one is using tropical zodiac they could include the moon position given sun cancer... alternatively, sidereal puts mercury in gemini ruling over the sun-jupiter conjunction... mercury is just in the process of going retrograde and conjunct ketu, so perhaps the sidereal chart is more problematic for different reasons...

what is the birth date for the example you shared if you are comfortable to share it? thanks..


I will message you on this.
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Pejofar



Joined: 28 Jul 2013
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Location: Braslia

Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a similar conversation with a friend, and we basically speculated about the role of the 12th and 8th houses. we were not necessarily talking about narcissism, but about people that tend to be more controlling and stiff in relationships, and people that are "forced" (or people that force themselves...) into situations where they are not really comfortable but they do so out of hope, respect, fear etc. these people tend to be codependent of each other. (please don't take this as necessarily good, real, complex psychological analysis!)

we thought about how the 12h has a tendency to spend, waste, deteriorate etc. and that maybe people with a very loud 12th house could be so "weak" by themselves that they need to get in touch with other people's energy and decisions to do something. they are demanding in a way, and at least in my personal experience, these people tend to consume a lot of time and resources. and the 12th house is the 6th of the 7th, showing how it can be a place to "explore" other people. of course the meaning of hidden enemies could show that this person is surrounded by enemies, or that they act in a hidden and manipulative way.

the 8th house could be similar, but I also think it can show when someone is too willing to give everything they have in order to sustain a relationship (the 8th is the 2nd of the 7th). of course it all depends on the planets and signs also, but a strong 8th house could be someone who feels very responsible for everything. so a potential scapegoat, willing (forced; coerced; trapped themselves into this situation) to take everyones pain and absorb it. but I can also see an 8th house getting very exploitative of others, if it's very malefic, getting other people resources for their own good.

I guess the Sun and Saturn must be very important to understand if someone is very authoritative and demanding, but also if the person feels very subjected to these planets.
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pejofar

thanks for chiming in!

the cadent houses get a bad rap - 6 and 12 in particular... the 9th gets treated differently as does the 3rd... but cadent houses are houses where planets in them are said to be unable to express the energy of the planet properly or effectively... the exception might be saturn which is said to work in a sense in the 12th.... maybe the karmic planet being in the karmic house is better in some respects... i am not quite sure...

but in so far as house the 12/6 houses work inside relationship, just on a purely house to house basis - if open relationships are defined by the 7th - the 12th is the 6th to the 7th, while the 6th is the 12th to the 7th! so we are back to these houses being cadent and problematic to the natural energy of the 7th..

the 8th is a special house intimately tied to the relationship sphere for good or bad.. in the natal chart is is considered a difficult chart as it is in no real relationship with the 1st, unless you want to call a quincunx relationship one that works in a challenging way.. so much will depend on the planets within these houses and the aspect relationships between all of the planets as well..

but if we just think of a focus on the 12th as indicative of problems of a social type, then yes - a chart with a focus on the 12th, especially with difficult aspects to important planets in the 12th, like the sun or moon - would immediately imply problems that come out in some social context... the idea of the 12th connected to hospitals makes sense, if you think of how things that aren't working well, mental health issues and etc - would perhaps tie quickly to the 12th house placements..

to your comment on the sun - saturn polarity and understanding much of this - it always helps if these planets are in some sort of favourable relationship to one another as i see it... squares, oppositions and sometimes conjunctions - are more challenging.. at the same time i have seen saturn in the upper square to sun as often indicative of real accomplishments in life, and the opposition is quite capable of producing individuals who are also extremely productive in some real concrete way...

bottom line - astrology is complicated and there are no simple general rules that can be applied without question.. that has been my observation and experience... i also like working with solar houses, and lunar houses.. i think these houses shed greater light on what the sun and moon have to work with in being able to express themselves more fully or clearly... i am looking at a chart of a friend at the moment who is suffering from anxiety... it happens to coincide with the transit of planets in the same sign as her saturn.. meanwhile her saturn is in her suns 12th house, so the transiting planets are also in the 12th house to her sun. astrology is fun and sometimes i get a better understanding thru the time i devote to it..
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