Planet temperament accord. to Lilly (vs. typical)

1
Anyone in the group is familiar with W. Lilly's logic about planet temperament?
Here it is, from chapter 106 (the first book I believe):

Saturn
Orientall Cold and moyst
Occidentall Dry
---
Jupiter
Orientall Hot and Moyst.
Occidental Moyst
---
Mars
Orientall Hot and dry
Occidentall Dry
---
Venus
Orientall Hot and moyst
Occidentall Moyst
---
Mercury
Oriental Hot
Occidental Dry

______________________________________________

The temperaments which are usually given, or the ones I'm most familiar with are:
Saturn - cold and dry.
Jupiter - hot and moist.
Mars - hot and dry.
Venus - cold and moist.
Mercury - cold and dry (or adaptable).

______________________________________________

I'm not as interested in the Sun and the Moon as I am with the other five traditional planets.

I know it has to do with the phase of the planet (occidental vs oriental / morning vs evening star) but I haven't went down the rabbit hole fully to understand the logic behind it.

Thanks.
https://www.gurastro.com

3
I have the book, thanks.
On page 149, you can find the same information as presented here.

Still I wasn't able to find the appropriate explanations as to why planetary temperament changes the way that it does, according to planetary phase (oriental vs. occidental).

Moreover, Margherita Fiorello, refers to the same phenomenon in her article about heliacal rising and setting. However, I failed to notice the explanation for the temperament change, in terms of planets, in her article.
https://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com/2 ... he-planets

My only thought at this time about Saturn being moist is the following: when a morning star (oriental) it would rise before the sun and the sun won't have the chance to dry the moisture away. That is, in contrast to it being an evening star (occidental).
This of course doesn't explain the rest of the changes in terms of planetary temperament.
https://www.gurastro.com

5
hi dima

Margherita used to post here at skyscript.. maybe she will pop up and chime in here..

for me a simple breakdown on moist or dry is night verses day... i guess that goes into moon verses sun as well... how these astro-philosophers get to the concept of what is moist or dry after that is a lot more complicated...

planetary phase hasn't really been focused on much in the time i have been following astrology.. maybe i read the wrong books, lol.... and of course - how does it change based on sect? in fact sect has been given short shrift too as i see it.. sure, the hellenistic astrologers put emphasis on it, but it seems to have fallen out of use and relevance, in spite of the revival in hellenistic and traditional astrology... planets get burnt - combust - when too close to the sun... but as they come out of the suns rays they are supposed to be revitalized and strong... thus oriental planets - those that technically are ahead of the sun 180, verses those behind the sun - 180 - occidental - are supposed to take on certain characteristics - moist or dry.... maybe the further away they get - this doesn't hold as much, but does this mean that they are more moist or dry as a consequence? no one has ever explained it to me..

in fact it seems indian astrology has a different take on all of this as well.. mars, i think, is considered more dry and is thought better in a night chart then a day chart according to hellenistic astrology.. according to indian astrology mars is best up near the midheaven with no mention of day or night or dry verses moist! maybe they don't care about whether a planet is dry or moist... or maybe i haven't read about it in any of the indian astro texts i have read..

on a related note - i suffer from dry skin... i am a nocturnal birth with saturn oriental and rising... it doesn't seem to be all that moist to me, but maybe this is not the way i am supposed to understand it!

Re: Planet temperament accord. to Lilly (vs. typical)

6
Dima Gur wrote: I know it has to do with the phase of the planet (occidental vs oriental / morning vs evening star) but I haven't went down the rabbit hole fully to understand the logic behind it.

Thanks.
Lilly's calculation derives from Ptolemy's chapter 11 in the Book III of Quadripartite.

https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/ ... C*.html#11

Ptolemy mentioned planets' temperament in the book I too in the chapter 8, Of the Power of the Aspects to the Sun, but in the book III gives slightly different info. In this chapter oriental planets are better than western and give the most harmonious complexions.
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

7
Thank you Margherita,

Just read the two mentioned chapters, they correspond perfectly with Lilly and Ptolemy gives the rationale (his rationale) for the above system.

Small point of unclarity - in Ptolemy book-1, chapter-8 ("position in regard to the sun"); when Ptolemy mentions the first station of planets, he means stationary retrograde or stationary direct?
https://www.gurastro.com

9
Jung said that each temperament can be introverted or extraverted
For example, a choleric with a strong Saturn will lean to introversion.
As Carl Jung rightly put it, “ There is no such thing as a pure introvert or a pure extrovert. Such a man would be condemned to spend his life in an asylum."
So there is in each of us a bit of the introvert and a bit of the extrovert. Some people tend to exert certain characteristics more than others.

Michael Page has this to say here:
https://www.michaelpage.be/fr/advice/le ... extraverti

They are complex. One can be introverted but not shy, like one of the richest men in the world, Bill Gates (Water signs, Cancer rising with Moon Angular), or conversely, one can be a shy extrovert like singer Barbara Streisand. (Aries rising with Mars angular but predominance of Earth signs)
-----------------

And a choleric can be introverted
Here are signs on how it will manifest
https://theintrovertsinger.com/11-signe ... ntre-vous/

1) He becomes monosyllabic like an angry discreet man who loses his Latin.
2) He loses eye (and emotional) contact.
3) He becomes insensitive
4) He hardens the features like a waxwork in the Grevin museum.
5) He becomes unavailable, number blocked, email not opened, SMS deleted.
6) He is suddenly overwhelmed, too busy lately has lost his way and starts going in all directions.
7) He ignores and stares, wraps oneself in one's pride and raises one's eyes above indignity.
8 ) He stiffens. Frozen outside but burning inside and no longer trusting his overflowing emotions.
Sun Tzu in 'The Art of War' says 'If your enemy seems angry at you, try to irritate him even more." A good way to deflate the balloon of an introverted choleric.
9) He points out all the flaws. He makes a precise and exhaustive inventory of the shortcomings of this detractor, henceforth one could not be more undesirable.
10) Finally he explodes. Lunatic results of a fiery supernova leaving an audience speechless.
11) He invests elsewhere.
An irritated reserved person gives his attention selectively by withdrawing his marbles from the game of whoever disturbs his internal arrangements. The introvert still prefers the company of animals or plants to that of an individual awakening the lightning that slumbers in him. The Discreet takes his holdings, exfiltrating his dividends from the ashes of his wrath. Cogito ergo sum.

So, viewing each Temperament with the Extrovert/Introvert Grid is a good way to better understand the person in front of us.
In Waldorf schools, they approach Grimm's fairy tales by telling the same story to children but in turn putting the emphasis on each temperament and their strengths. More too often, the hero is a choleric but some day they will tell the story and put the emphasis on the loyalty and resilience of a phlegmatic secondary person in the story.
Oriental vs Occidental is one of the many factors used to see if the attention of someone is towards the object (external) or the subject (internal).

The methodology of Greenbaum is explained here
http://www.exeterastrologygroup.org.uk/ ... pdate.html
But she does not seem to make a distinction between Introvert vs Extrovert the way Jung sees the temperaments.
Maybe I missed this and I apologize if I misunderstood what she is saying.
Blessings!