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Really interesting, Alex!

I hope it's appropriate to discuss astrological Ceres here. I've studied Ceres off and on for some years and so far, I still think it behaves like an asteroid (unlike now-dwarf planet Pluto, which behaves like a modern planet.) I'm involved in a current thread on Ceres at Astrodienst.

Michael, I think the parallels you drew between the Snow White fairy tale and the myths of Demeter/Ceres and Persephone/Proserpina are fascinating. There are different versions of the Ceres-Prosperina myth, but the main ones I'm aware of are the Homeric "Hymn to Demeter" and in Ovid's Metamorphoses. (Both of them are available in English on line; probably also in German.)

The Ovid version is instructive because it has a parallel for the evil queen in the figure of Venus. When the story opens, Venus announces her dominion over lovers. Singles are an anathema to her. Venus gets Cupid to hit Pluto with an arrow, he then sees Proserpina, and the rest is, if not history, mythology.

We can imagine some kind of story that pits the moon against Venus for a beauty contest.

We know mythical Venus to be jealous, as in the beauty contest between Venus, Juno, and Minerva (Athena) that starts the Trojan War. (Astrological Venus in Scorpio is a typical indicator of jealousy.(

Joseph Campbell talks about magical helpers in the hero's journey. In Snow White, we have the huntsman and the Seven Dwarves. There are several in the ancient myth, notably the goddess Hecate.

The red apple and pomegranate outwardly look similar. Then the forbidden fruit of Genesis was supposedly an apple (it doesn't say,) and there are sexual connotations with both fruits. (Think of the red juice of the pomegranate as the ruptured hymen.)

I'd vote for the Pleiades as symbolizing the seven Dwarves because this asterism was such an important time-keeper in Antiquity (cf. Hesiod, Works and Days.) There is some thought that the Pleiades are depicted with Taurus in the Paleolithic cave paintings of Lascaux. It has more than seven visible stars, but seven were believed to be the main ones.

Today we don't make fun of people of short stature. It is normally caused by a genetic disorder. In any case, the dwarves of fairy tales and Germanic myth were magical beings and miners who, like Pluto, brought forth the riches buried within the earth.

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Waybread: "I don't think those major TNOs will stop at seven. Probably there are more out there."

Well, you're certainly right about that! Currently Serennu's chart program automatically generates 5 Dwarf planets, 28 TNOs and 4 SDOs. I guess we can quibble over the definition of "major", but there's lots more out there, for sure. And officially just four bodies actually classed as dwarves beyond Neptune (plus Ceres, of course) - I suspect that Sneezy, Sleepy and Grumpy are yet to be found.

Most I don't use - they are from non-Western traditions which have very little, if any, information currently available about their myth, so there's no real jumping-off point for interpretation. Often from oral traditions of indigenous peoples, so much has been lost when "civilization" came to town.

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Michael Sternbach wrote:
Actually, I do consider this a valid way of looking at how astrology works. But then, we should perhaps try and explore what is underlying that kind of synchronicity. Celestial bodies and human beings (and anything else, for that matter) are interconnected in some mysterious ways. Some kind of mutual resonance may come into play here...

The ancients believed that "rays" emanated by every entity (including stars, humans, and cockroaches) would make for aforesaid connection. And it was not looked at as a one-way street by any means! For instance, the theory about how (astral) magic worked assumed that the sorcerer's intention, transmitted to the corresponding celestial body, would cause the latter to manifest the desired thing. (See Al-Kindi's On the Stellar Rays.

Since for both you and me, Dane Rudhyar has been instrumental in shaping our outlook on astrology, relevant passages from his books may provide a useful basis for this discussion. Here are a few that I find significant:
Still another type [of astrology] —very little developed as yet—will be of a more occult character and deal with vast planetary factors, with the cosmic (spiritual and creative) influence of stars and Divine Hierarchies,—or else with occultly perceived symbols revealing the creative significance of every astrological factor.
From The Astrology of Personality, chapter 5

The Ptolemaic zodiac has been already described as a belt of creative fire surrounding the Earth, and focalized upon the Earth mainly by the Sun and secondarily by the planets. The center of this belt of fire is the ecliptic, the apparent path of the Sun. The signs of the zodiac are identified with the
constellations (at least in pre-Ptolemaic astrology) and as well with celestial
hierarchies of Cosmic Builders. These hierarchies constitute collectively the
Universal Mind, the operative creative energy of the macrocosm. The zodiac as a whole is a vast cosmic lens focalizing upon the earth the combined powers of the hierarchies, thereby making of the Earth as a whole, or of Man-in-the-whole, a microcosm.
From The Astrology of Personality, chapter 7

This is made even more evident by the traditional projection of the zodiac upon the human body—or, which is less usual but better, the human “aura??? or auric egg. Here we see a particular sign of the zodiac assigned to every part of the body. Indeed, the zodiac is then a pattern of organic interchange, a charting of the circuits of the life-force (Sun) as it energizes the various parts and organs of the integrated collectivity of cells—which we call a body. The zodiac is thus seen as the ideal pattern and the formative mould of every “body.???
From The Astrology of Personality, chapter 7


Now I am not sure where Rudhyar may have been talking about the correspondence between us and the "stars" as a parallelism, even though I would not rule out the possibility that he did. Yes, he did mention "stellar influences" on many occasions, but then again, he was a syncretistic thinker for sure. And we syncretists are much more interested in reconciling seemingly exclusive perspectives with each other than in keeping them apart. :)

If you have any references available to you, I would really like to see them.
[/quote]

Michael, thank you so much for sharing your insights. I enjoy reading them, but unfortunately I am not one to be able to give any analytical/theoretical feedback. I am just the one who collects data and is in awe.

I haven't read Rudhyar in over two decades, but his idea that the stars don't influence us, just give info, always stayed with me, and in the light of the myriad of asteroids popping up at points that do not even materially exists, it just keeps making sense to me.

It remains my hope that scientists and /or astrologers with more analytical capacities than me at some point in a future not so far away will explain what is underlying that kind of synchronicity! How fantastic would that be!

Again, thank you, and again sorry if I disappoint you, but I can' t give any useful intellectual reply. Looking forward to reading more of your insights and ideas -- and i will keep sharing my findings, that's all i can do! And I'm definitely going to read up on Alkindi, whom I had never heard of! :)

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alex miller wrote:Waybread: "I don't think those major TNOs will stop at seven. Probably there are more out there."

Well, you're certainly right about that! Currently Serennu's chart program automatically generates 5 Dwarf planets, 28 TNOs and 4 SDOs. I guess we can quibble over the definition of "major", but there's lots more out there, for sure. And officially just four bodies actually classed as dwarves beyond Neptune (plus Ceres, of course) - I suspect that Sneezy, Sleepy and Grumpy are yet to be found.

Most I don't use - they are from non-Western traditions which have very little, if any, information currently available about their myth, so there's no real jumping-off point for interpretation. Often from oral traditions of indigenous peoples, so much has been lost when "civilization" came to town.
Hi Alex, I don't know where or how you draw the line between TNO dwarf planets and asteroids, but there is a fair bit of information, if disparate, on mythological Sedna, and some info on astrological and astronomical Sedna. I started a thread on Sedna at Astrodienst, now in its 10th page.
https://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1637034671

One might argue pro or con about the value of mythology in astrology but since so many of the asteroids have a story to tell, I think it's worth reading these stories in the original, allowing for English translation. Arctic anthropology is a big field, so a fair bit is known about Sedna in cultural and environmental context. There is a big issue of cultural appropriation, however.

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Waybread, the line is an easy one to see between asteroids and TNOS. Like all astro-realty, it's about location, location, location. Asteroids are bodies between Mars and Jupiter; TNOS are bodies past Neptune.

As for the line between 'regular' TNOs and Dwarf planets, that's above my pay grade; astronomers decide which to designate as dwarves.

And I do use Sedna, frequently. She has a great, full, rich myth, and there's a lot that can be gleaned from it. There are perhaps a dozen of these bodies which I use, some more than others, so roughly a third of the 30-odd named points in that class.

But some, like Mbabamwanawaresa (say that five times fast - or even once, slow!) or Leleakuhonua (a bit more euphonious) have virtually no meat on their mythic bones. You might get a line here or there.

While I don't assert that these points would only resonate to a mythic underpinning, it's generally a good place to start, and broaden from there.
Otherwise, it's just a shot in the dark - where would you even begin to understand it, solely from observation? I'm not that Chaldean. :lol:

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Alex and Waybread, how do you use Sedna? As she is so incredibly slow, I've never used her -- other than seeing her transit in Taurus on a global level reflected in mass consumerism and emptied seas. Wonder what her current transit through the weeping sisters degrees will bring -- in trine with Pluto. In 2024 she will enter Gemini -- maybe that will bring some more clarification about her astrological significance. Next month north Node will transit over her - -that may give more info about her nature and astrological meaning too. LAst time NN transited over her was late 2003, early 2004. Not sure what happened then. Maybe checking past Jupiter transits and South Node transits over her would help too (don't have the time to do it)

SOmething lighter than Sedna:
I researched Homer, Shakespeare, Molière, Kalliope (muse of eloquence and epic poetry), and Scheherezade in ten authors' charts. Only using conjunctions and oppositions.

Here my results:

JK ROwling: Kalliope conjunct Pallas, Homer conjunct NN, Scheherezade conjunct Moon

Astrid Lindgren: Homer conjucnt Jupiter, Scheherezade conjunct ruler of Ascendant Saturn, KAlliope conjunct Homer

Tonke Dragt: Scheherezade conjucnt ruler of Asc Saturn, Molière conjunct Venus, SHakespeare conjunct ruler of Asc Uranus, Kalliope opposite Jupiter

GG Marquez:
Kalliope conjunct Asc, Homer conjunct Jupiter and Sun, Molière conjunct Mercury

Hemingway: Shakespeare conjunct Mars, Sheherezade conjunct Uranus, Kalliope conjunct Pallas

Mark Twain: Molière conjunct mercury, Homer conjunct Descendant, Kalliope conjunct Venus

Danielle Steele:
Shakespeare conjunct Sun, Scheherezade conjunct Venus, Kalliope conjunct Pluto

Agatha Christie: Kalliope conjunct Asc, Molière conjunct Sun, Homer opposite POF

Goethe: Kalliope and Homer conjunct Sun

SCott Fitzgerald: Molière conjunct Mercury, Homer conjunct Venus

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Anna, I use Sedna predominantly in mundane work, so I don't get into the more psychological aspects of her meaning. As an Inuit goddess who lives in the deepest, most inaccessible part of the Arctic Ocean, my 'cookie cutter' shorthand take is "isolation." PNAs for political figures will often encounter her in the transit sky when they are odd man out, for example. Or, for COVID chart, Hygeia (sanitation) stationary direct exactly conjunct Sedna - "wash your hands and stay inside." :D

But some of the themes to be derived from her myth include refusal to grow up and accept responsibility for oneself; claiming one's power; betrayal. That's all I can recall offhand; as I say, I don't use it for personal charts much.

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interesting Alex! I guess especially Sedna conjunct Asc should be revealing about the nature of Sedna (as Sedna conjunct Sun or other planets would be shared by everybody born the same day/week) -- no time to scan celebrities now but will keep it in mind and be on the outlook!

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My impressions of Sedna are so different!

It's a longish thread, but you will see my take on Sedna on this thread at Astrodienst:
https://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?n ... 1642567855

It is really essential IMO for us to understand Sedna in a distinctively Inuit context, and to minimize the Eurocentric tendency of cultural appropriation.

Inuit country is a vast territory, ranging from western Alaska to Greenland. Inuit communities were and are small and isolated so they developed different versions of their cultural lore, and there is not just a one-size-fits-all myth of Sedna. In some communities she is seen as a vindictive old hag who consorts with underworld wraiths at the onset of winter. She is not just a kind of First Nations Peter Pan who won't grow up, or the bountiful "Eskimo" maiden who sends up sea mammals.

We don't know why mythological Sedna refused her initial suitors. Traditionally Inuit girls married right after the onset of puberty., at age 13 or 14. Sedna's refusals clearly precipitate a crisis in the ecology of a traditional Inuit family, but we don't know why she refused them. In one version, Sedna marries a dog, and their children become ancestors of the Inuit, the First Nations tribes to the south of the Inuit, and even of white people. The dog attempts to provide for Sedna, but her father kills him.

Sedna's shape-shifting sea bird husband lures her away under false pretenses. As the bird husband causes a storm at sea, threatening to kill both Sedna and her father, she experiences profound betrayal first from her husband and then from her father as he throws her overboard and cuts off her fingers to prevent her from clinging to the boat.

I think there is a Sedna theme of men in one's life who cannot be trusted. Another theme is that she is a liminal figure. Isolation, yes; but beyond that Sedna represents what is dark, cold, unknowable, unfathomable.

Sedna mythology is probably a cautionary tale: girls shouldn't be choosy or they will end up with a totally unsuitable husband who is a poor hunter, not only for meat but for the furs necessary to combat the cold. A girl's single status had real survival consequences in the Arctic.

Astronomical Sedna has an orbital period of over 11,400 years. None of the known and mapped dwarf planets comes even close to that interval. 11,400 years ago, the northern hemisphere was emerging from the last Ice Age. Sedna is currently about as close to the sun as she will get before moving back out into the outer reaches of the solar system.

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Waybread, very interesting. I realise I know a lady in my direct environment with Sedna conjunct Asc. Everything you say fits her: she was very choosy, rejected a bunch of good suitors, finally picked a husband who would betray her, and became a cranky old hag.

Note, just like planets, an asteroid can have many different meanings. For instance, many authors have asteroid Cervantes conjunct Asc or Moon. But physicist De Broglie also had Cervantes conjunct Asc: he wasn't a writer, but, like Cervantes, he served in the army, and like DOn Quichote, he was a nobleman. And just like Cervantes and Don Quichote, De Broglie was said to be homosexual
Last edited by annadeer on Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Just to be clear, I certainly didn't mean to suggest that my Sedna usages were the last word on her meaning. But no point ever represents everything it can, every time it appears. I stand by my suggestions as my experience of her, which admittedly is limited, but just as valid.

I did take a brief run thru your Sedna thread, Waybread, but didn't have the time to do it justice. However, on the issue of cultural appropriation, I agree with the poster there who said that myths are archetypes available to all peoples in all times, or words to that effect. Sedna's shoulders are broad enough to carry the weight of her Inuit people's projections, and our own.

And it's not like classical deities are dead, just because they are not the official religion markers of a particular ethnic group anymore. There are many who still venerate classical gods, myself included. At a guess, I would hazard that there are more worshipping pagans in today's world than there are Inuit. So if cultural appropriation applies to Inuit deities it also does to Greek gods.

Which would leave us with nothing astrologically. :(