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Sudarshana Chakra Dasa and parallels with profections
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:47 pm    Post subject: Ch 74 of BPHS Reply with quote

Chapter 74 of BPHS on Sudarshan Chakra is ready. It's a bit too long to post so I have it available as a PDF.
Anyone who wants to follow the threads on this topic is welcome to PM me requesting the doc with their email and I will send it to you as an attachment. I guess the offer will be valid so long as the topic is active.
Be Well.
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks aj! i don't think it would be too much to share your pdf data in a post here... but it is up to you..

continuing on with the idea of analyzing hamishs chart for what are the benefics and malefics, using moon houses - i don't see any obvious malefics.. using sun houses - moon-mars are in the solar 12th house.. this would put moon as a malefic and mars as a benefic according to the pdf, as i read it.. i haven't included rahu and ketu and believe the way bphs worded it - they are malefic regardless where they land... do i have that correct?
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Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i am going to start dropping event dates here to solicit some interest in applying the techniques we are discussing... i have yet to look at this, but hamish has been married 3 times...

his first marriage was on- nov 3rd, 1969 1pm seattle... - his 16th birthday...

i have yet to look at the profections.. i am not sure the best way to proceed with this study, but if someone has an idea - please make some suggestions.. thanks..
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AJ



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Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
thanks aj! i don't think it would be too much to share your pdf data in a post here... but it is up to you..

continuing on with the idea of analyzing hamishs chart for what are the benefics and malefics, using moon houses - i don't see any obvious malefics.. using sun houses - moon-mars are in the solar 12th house.. this would put moon as a malefic and mars as a benefic according to the pdf, as i read it.. i haven't included rahu and ketu and believe the way bphs worded it - they are malefic regardless where they land... do i have that correct?

Mars I don't see being a benefic at all in the SC context, could you explain your reasoning?
Mars aspects its own house by 8th glance and this would be limited to benefitting that house rather than strengthening Mars itself, but this may not be so beneficial as 2 of those houses involved are occupied by malefics (Ve Ke) in the Sudarshan Chakra. A question I have does occupation of a malefic planet house 'trump' an aspect by the lord of its house? or is it about which planet is stronger? Mars being associated with other malefics I would think this weakens its effects in this regard.
The context in BPHS 74 when considering benefics and malefics is the three charts as a whole. BPHS 74 as I read it uses the planets in their natural roles as benefics and malefics with a few special exceptions. Two of them are in Hamish's chart, so what a happy accidental pick of an example chart James. I think you couldn't have done better.

In Hamish's chart, the Sun is not considered a malefic because it is in the first Solar house as per BPHS 74 (7-9), Saturn is exalted in Libra so it acts as a functional benefic.

The Moon is weak within 72 degrees of the Sun (32.5 degrees) but still a benefic. Not quite Ksheena (New Moon) yet.
Venus I think in the context of BPHS 74 would be considered functional malefic too because he's neecha (fall) and associated with another malefic Mars. (See BPHS 74 v15-16)
Rahu and Ketu are always considered malefic in BPHS 74.
Benefics: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Jupiter and Saturn
Malefics: Venus, Mars, Rahu and Ketu.

Here is Hamish's SC


Last edited by AJ on Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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AJ



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Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
i am going to start dropping event dates here to solicit some interest in applying the techniques we are discussing... i have yet to look at this, but Hamish has been married 3 times...
his first marriage was on- nov 3rd, 1969 1pm seattle... - his 16th birthday...
i have yet to look at the profections.. i am not sure the best way to proceed with this study, but if someone has an idea - please make some suggestions.. thanks..

At least for me, I am curious if the Sudarshan Chakra and/or dasha will be any better than a regular ascendant-wise chart for information/prediction accuracy. At the end of the day, is it any better? That's what I'm curious about.

Also must apologize, James, there are more than a few rabbit holes and some streaming consciousness in this post! An elderly British (think Raj) gent I once knew when I was in my youth called it "thingish thought." I jump back and forth from the natal (ascendant-wise chart) to the SC a few times.

I think the main goal for delineation is KISS (Keep It Stupidly Simple). If it's a valid technique the basic astrological symbolism should be pretty clear. The combined nature of the three charts, natal, Lunar and Solar makes this difficult. Compounded by the fact that each SC house can have up to three rulers.

I will try to limit it to influences on the active dasha house and its lord for now.

For Hamish's wedding on 11/3/1969
11/3/1968 to 11/3/1969 the SC main dasha of the 4th house or Jupiter was running.

[Interesting that in Vimshotarri dasha he is running the subperiod of Jupiter (in the main period of Rahu which is placed in the Solar 4th (home), Lunar 5th (romance) and natal 2nd (family) also. It can't be a coincidence that he got married on his 16th birthday, was there a legal reason for this?]

[The Vimshotarri seems to fit better than using the SC dasha, or profection.]

The SC sub-period is the third house (initiatives) or natal (Saturn), Lunar (Mars), Solar (Jupiter).
Natally (ascendant-wise) the profections would be Jupiter and Saturn respectively. Did Hamish marry an older woman (Saturn)? I'm really curious about his Ve/Me association in the D9 4th house and Sa in the 7th. Both are afflicted in D9.

Back to the SC chart... This is all 20/20 hindsight but Natal ascendant and Lunar Rahu are in the fourth house of the home. Rahu here is not good for a stable home life because of an underlying dissatisfaction with it that disrupts mental peace.
In Hamish's chart, Ju rules two of the signs in the SC 4th house. The Lord of the natal (Pi) and Lunar fourth (Sg) house of home is activated (Jupiter) is in the SC seventh house of marriage and partnership. The SC 4th is also negatively aspected by malefics from the 10th house. I can see Rahu's influence for an impetuous decision to marry.

Back to Jupiter for the moment. Ju is also placed in the Lunar 9th and Solar 10th. Ju aspects the SC 4th from the solar 10th and is associated with malefics.
Does this come into play too?
What's not to say the event wasn't a terrible new job in real estate? in that case.
Ju in the 9th, would you start school or meet your Guru?
Did all three like events happen during this period? Not to likely.

Which placement of a house ruler do you take? or take them all? Even limiting delineation to the SC house ruler or rulers is a "slippery slope." Does that leave us with just the SC house then?

Solar Saturn as ruler of Cp is also in the SC 4th you could argue is activated to being placed in the Lunar 11th and Solar 1st. 11th and 1st house activations are not uncommon in marriage events but its very tempting to keep going and knowing when to stop when we have three charts. This is why I think its important to initially limit how far one can pursue an event with this chart, or you can make anything go.

A planet ruling two signs out of the three to an SC house I think are important to the affairs of that house and its condition is relevant, but singly I'm not so sure.

Natural Karakas I believe are valid at this point.

Do occupied houses receive aspects? Do occupied houses receive malefic aspects depending on the strength of the residents? benefic aspects? Can a planet singly from one of the charts affect a combined SC house? Take Lunar Mars for example, it aspects the SC 4th house but none of the other SC 1st house planets aspect it. In this case does Mars aspect afflict the SC 4th house on its own? Rahu is a already there so its hard to tell unless maybe Hamish's home life was/is violent/harsh in some way.

The SC 7th house is receiving aspect from the SC 1st. There are three benefics and two malefics, the Moon is very weak, so its pretty even without splitting hairs and the aspect would be newutral of you don't take any one planet in isolation.
Venus the natural significator for marriage is quite weak in Virgo (neecha or fall), vargotamma* so neecha in D9, and associated with malefics so all of this would suggest overall misfortune in marriage.
*vargotamma, in this case, does not help at all. Planets need to be at least mostly strong to gain much good from vargotamma.

Not to close to you but be sure protect your throat from wolves on your weekend music trek. Smile
BBC News. 2019. “Wolf Attacks Family Camping in Canada National Park,” August 14, 2019. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49351040.
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

from chapter 74 - stanza 24-26 bphs..
"If there are benefics in Bhavas other than the 12th or 6th, the Bhava concerned will produce favorable effects. In other words, if the benefics be in the 12th or 6th from the Bhava concerned, unfavorable effects will be derived in the related year, month etc. If there be malefics in the 3rd, 6th and 11th from the Bhava, assuming the role of Lagna, then these three Bhavas will produce auspicious results."

aj - sorry for the delay!!! i think i was projecting my thoughts on planets in the 12th being negative and this rule of benefics in the 12/6 axis actually being a negative.. i think i extended the idea to think of malefics in teh 12/6 axis being a positive... re-reading the pdf you gave me, this is all i can conclude as to why i thought mars might be a benefic in hamishs chart.. with this in mind an your comment below about mercury being a benefic in hamishs chart, how does this rule work out for mercury in the 12th here? ps - i am projecting the idea of profection rules - which is how i read stanza 24-26 - onto the rasi, or natal chart and how to interpret it.. this might also be a mistake on my part..

i am still kind of busy for the next few days, but get freed up after friday supperfime! i will be back to respond to other posts and comments then.. thank you!

AJ wrote:
james_m wrote:
thanks aj! i don't think it would be too much to share your pdf data in a post here... but it is up to you..

continuing on with the idea of analyzing hamishs chart for what are the benefics and malefics, using moon houses - i don't see any obvious malefics.. using sun houses - moon-mars are in the solar 12th house.. this would put moon as a malefic and mars as a benefic according to the pdf, as i read it.. i haven't included rahu and ketu and believe the way bphs worded it - they are malefic regardless where they land... do i have that correct?

Mars I don't see being a benefic at all in the SC context, could you explain your reasoning?
Mars aspects its own house by 8th glance and this would be limited to benefitting that house rather than strengthening Mars itself, but this may not be so beneficial as 2 of those houses involved are occupied by malefics (Ve Ke) in the Sudarshan Chakra. A question I have does occupation of a malefic planet house 'trump' an aspect by the lord of its house? or is it about which planet is stronger? Mars being associated with other malefics I would think this weakens its effects in this regard.
The context in BPHS 74 when considering benefics and malefics is the three charts as a whole. BPHS 74 as I read it uses the planets in their natural roles as benefics and malefics with a few special exceptions. Two of them are in Hamish's chart, so what a happy accidental pick of an example chart James. I think you couldn't have done better.

In Hamish's chart, the Sun is not considered a malefic because it is in the first Solar house as per BPHS 74 (7-9), Saturn is exalted in Libra so it acts as a functional benefic.

The Moon is weak within 72 degrees of the Sun (32.5 degrees) but still a benefic. Not quite Ksheena (New Moon) yet.
Venus I think in the context of BPHS 74 would be considered functional malefic too because he's neecha (fall) and associated with another malefic Mars. (See BPHS 74 v15-16)
Rahu and Ketu are always considered malefic in BPHS 74.
Benefics: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Jupiter and Saturn
Malefics: Venus, Mars, Rahu and Ketu.

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james_m



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Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJ wrote:

At least for me, I am curious if the Sudarshan Chakra and/or dasha will be any better than a regular ascendant-wise chart for information/prediction accuracy. At the end of the day, is it any better? That's what I'm curious about.


right... that makes a lot of sense and i agree with you..


AJ wrote:

I think the main goal for delineation is KISS (Keep It Stupidly Simple). If it's a valid technique the basic astrological symbolism should be pretty clear. The combined nature of the three charts, natal, Lunar and Solar makes this difficult. Compounded by the fact that each SC house can have up to three rulers.


i am wondering if the dasha lord - or what is called the profection lord for the year isn't really only gotten from the ascendant, as opposed to the moon or sun? this way, only one dasha lord would be in emphasis for the year... a sub lord could be gotten for each month too, but i think this is just off the ascendant rasi.. i could be mistaken, but it would get too complicated if it was meant for each chart - ascendant, moon and sun... well, that is how i see this now... your thoughts??

i will try to comment on the comments below in my next post... i managed to stave off the wolves for the time being!! have to leave now..

AJ wrote:

I will try to limit it to influences on the active dasha house and its lord for now.

For Hamish's wedding on 11/3/1969
11/3/1968 to 11/3/1969 the SC main dasha of the 4th house or Jupiter was running.

[Interesting that in Vimshotarri dasha he is running the subperiod of Jupiter (in the main period of Rahu which is placed in the Solar 4th (home), Lunar 5th (romance) and natal 2nd (family) also. It can't be a coincidence that he got married on his 16th birthday, was there a legal reason for this?]

[The Vimshotarri seems to fit better than using the SC dasha, or profection.]

The SC sub-period is the third house (initiatives) or natal (Saturn), Lunar (Mars), Solar (Jupiter).
Natally (ascendant-wise) the profections would be Jupiter and Saturn respectively. Did Hamish marry an older woman (Saturn)? I'm really curious about his Ve/Me association in the D9 4th house and Sa in the 7th. Both are afflicted in D9.

Back to the SC chart... This is all 20/20 hindsight but Natal ascendant and Lunar Rahu are in the fourth house of the home. Rahu here is not good for a stable home life because of an underlying dissatisfaction with it that disrupts mental peace.
In Hamish's chart, Ju rules two of the signs in the SC 4th house. The Lord of the natal (Pi) and Lunar fourth (Sg) house of home is activated (Jupiter) is in the SC seventh house of marriage and partnership. The SC 4th is also negatively aspected by malefics from the 10th house. I can see Rahu's influence for an impetuous decision to marry.

Back to Jupiter for the moment. Ju is also placed in the Lunar 9th and Solar 10th. Ju aspects the SC 4th from the solar 10th and is associated with malefics.
Does this come into play too?
What's not to say the event wasn't a terrible new job in real estate? in that case.
Ju in the 9th, would you start school or meet your Guru?
Did all three like events happen during this period? Not to likely.

Which placement of a house ruler do you take? or take them all? Even limiting delineation to the SC house ruler or rulers is a "slippery slope." Does that leave us with just the SC house then?

Solar Saturn as ruler of Cp is also in the SC 4th you could argue is activated to being placed in the Lunar 11th and Solar 1st. 11th and 1st house activations are not uncommon in marriage events but its very tempting to keep going and knowing when to stop when we have three charts. This is why I think its important to initially limit how far one can pursue an event with this chart, or you can make anything go.

A planet ruling two signs out of the three to an SC house I think are important to the affairs of that house and its condition is relevant, but singly I'm not so sure.

Natural Karakas I believe are valid at this point.

Do occupied houses receive aspects? Do occupied houses receive malefic aspects depending on the strength of the residents? benefic aspects? Can a planet singly from one of the charts affect a combined SC house? Take Lunar Mars for example, it aspects the SC 4th house but none of the other SC 1st house planets aspect it. In this case does Mars aspect afflict the SC 4th house on its own? Rahu is a already there so its hard to tell unless maybe Hamish's home life was/is violent/harsh in some way.

The SC 7th house is receiving aspect from the SC 1st. There are three benefics and two malefics, the Moon is very weak, so its pretty even without splitting hairs and the aspect would be newutral of you don't take any one planet in isolation.
Venus the natural significator for marriage is quite weak in Virgo (neecha or fall), vargotamma* so neecha in D9, and associated with malefics so all of this would suggest overall misfortune in marriage.
*vargotamma, in this case, does not help at all. Planets need to be at least mostly strong to gain much good from vargotamma.

Not to close to you but be sure protect your throat from wolves on your weekend music trek. Smile
BBC News. 2019. “Wolf Attacks Family Camping in Canada National Park,” August 14, 2019. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49351040.
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AJ



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Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
re-reading the pdf you gave me, this is all i can conclude as to why i thought mars might be a benefic in hamishs chart.. with this in mind an your comment below about mercury being a benefic in hamishs chart, how does this rule work out for mercury in the 12th here?

I must have been considering Mercury being alone in the sign of Sc. If we consider it alone in sign placement it would be a benefic, though badly placed in the 12th... but,
You are right, thanks for pointing this oversight out.
The rule I think in v24-26 applies to the "ascendant of the year." because v. 24 begins... "At the time of commencement of a Dasa..."

More fundamental to the question of Mercury as benefic or malefic is the basic character of Mercury as a neutral when associated with malefics becomes a malefic.

If you take the planets in the SC 12th and SC 2nd I think Mercury tips over to the malefic side since it is associated with weak and malefic planets.

Since the Sun is singled out as a benefic in ch74 I think we can conclude that a malefic or benefic applies to the whole SC chart.

I had another reply post but it is gone now. Must have not submitted it or closed the browser tab. Oh well. Look forward to your comments.
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aj,

thanks for your many fine and informative comments..

i have had to ponder this for a while.. i have the background of having read ben dykes translation of abu ma'shars 'on the revolutions of the years of nativities' which is referred to as 'on solar revolutions' persian nativities volume 3.. in this book i learned more about profections and how they are used in connection with solar returns, primary directions thru the bounds, planetary periods, indian ninth parts and etc. etc..

as you helpfully point out - when a chart has the sun or moon in the same sign as the natal chart ascendant - the 3 part chart gets simplified down to the natal chart, which actually happens in my case... i really don't believe they would be using the profection lords of three different signs per year! however, i am trying to honour what the info from the BPHS says which you have graciously provided...

--------

as for mercury as malefic or benefic - do you believe mercury is connected to a malefic to make it malefic, or could it be malefic purely based on being in the 12th? i see it is tied to rahu via trine... is that what you are thinking?

i really want to get a grip on what is or isn't a benefic and malefic according to indian astrology... as you mentioned previously - this is not an easy task..

--------

the basis for hamish getting married when he was 16 is canadian law at the time in b.c. would only allow for him being married when he was 18 or 19...so, yes - that is why he married in seattle on his 16th birthday..

--------

i can't help but think we are complicating it by running everything thru 3 charts as opposed to the one chart.. i do believe the lunar and solar charts are quite relevant and can help give us more information, but my feeling is they wouldn't have been used this way with this concept of profections... i have no way of substantiating this though! i can fall back on the book i reference above, but this takes us away from indian astrology into persian astrology!! i do believe they are connected however and i ponder what was retained and what was lost in the communications between these different cultures... i don't have a clear picture of the history of india, but i do recall visiting india and places like jodphur where there seem to be a lot of history that makes me think the info from persia and india would have cross pollinated at some point in history..

---------

so, i am back to trying to define what is a benefic and malefic to hamishs chart.. as far as venus vargottama in hamishs chart - this sounds like both you and therese view this as a negative... venus is a natural signifactor for marriage and relationship and perhaps a persons relationships with women in particular.. it would also be a symbol for artistic involvement... all this would depend on not just the sign, but the house and aspects to venus too... that would make it more personal... hamish as i think i said - is on his 3rd marriage... the last one happened on dec 31st 1999.. below is the chart for this event which took place in tanzania, africa...



below is an overlay of natal chart with event chart on the outside... one can note the interesting set up with mercury in both charts... ascendant for the time is triggering venus in virgo - 3rd time lucky? hamish remains married to the same women since and seems to be on good terms with her... one can also note what appears to be the importance of the opposition of transit saturn to natal sun in this chart as well...

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AJ



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Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:

as for mercury as malefic or benefic - do you believe mercury is connected to a malefic to make it malefic, or could it be malefic purely based on being in the 12th? i see it is tied to rahu via trine... is that what you are thinking?

i really want to get a grip on what is or isn't a benefic and malefic according to indian astrology... as you mentioned previously - this is not an easy task.

Leaving aside the complicated business of functional benefics and malefics in Indian astrology...
At its most basic the natural roles of the planets in traditional Jyotish as benefic and malefic are the same as in western astrology but with a few different nuances.
The unqualified benefics are Venus and Jupiter.
The unqualified malefics are Mars, Saturn Rahu and Ketu.
The Sun is termed a "lighter" malefic and when is in its own sign or exalted is termed "cruel" rather than malefic. Some schools stick with the cruel description of the Sun in all signs.
The Moon is a benefic but at New Moon is very weak and acts as a malefic. (When applying to the Sun within 24 degrees.) Moon is weak within 72 degrees of the Sun, but this is a minor weakness at the limits.
Mercury is neutral and when alone or in association with benefics is a benefic, when associated with malefics is malefic, when with both benefics and malefics equally gives mixed results.
The malefic in increasing severity are New Moon, Sun, Mars/Ketu, Saturn/Rahu. Mercury depends on which malefics it is associated with.
Benefics in increasing order are Mercury alone and not associated with malefics, Venus, Mercury with a benefic, no malefics, Jupiter.

Quote:
i can't help but think we are complicating it by running everything thru 3 charts as opposed to the one chart.. i do believe the lunar and solar charts are quite relevant and can help give us more information, but my feeling is they wouldn't have been used this way with this concept of profections... i have no way of substantiating this though! i can fall back on the book i reference above, but this takes us away from indian astrology into persian astrology!! i do believe they are connected however and i ponder what was retained and what was lost in the communications between these different cultures... i don't have a clear picture of the history of india, but i do recall visiting india and places like jodphur where there seem to be a lot of history that makes me think the info from persia and india would have cross pollinated at some point in history..

No doubt, Tajika astrology is mostly of Arab/Persian origin. I have no idea about Sudarshan Chakras origins but I would not be surprised. So many of the terms in Jyotish are greek in origin that much of it must have come from them in hoary times. One of the earliest classical texts even attributes the Greeks, but I am not really much of a scholar of such things.
The tri-wheel Sudarshan Chakra avoids this by using the SC dasha (aka profection) per houses versus the sign approach. It remains to be seen if it really is better than considering the Solar and Lunar charts for additional insights, or themes in the natal chart. In practice, I consider the Solar and Lunar (mostly) charts much like I do vargas in that the natal chart has the weight of about 80% while for vargas it is about 20%. In some cases, the planets are so weak and afflicted in the natal chart that consideration of the varga charts is irrelevant. This is a general statement. There are times when the natal chart in spite of some houses being seemingly strong in the natal chart, perform poorly. When the concerned varga is analyzed with the natal chart all falls into place along with the dasha/bhukti if the birth time is correct.

It feels odd giving all three charts equal weight.

Now there is that somewhat quizzical rule v. 19-20. The sage replied. The results should be declared in accordance with the Sudarshana
Chakra, only when Surya and Chandra being in separate Rasis different from the Rasi of Lagna. If amongst Lagna, Surya and Chandra, all three, or two of them are in the same Rasi, the judgment of effects should be made from the Rasi Kundalini only.

So maybe each of the charts is not so equal in weight? Someone born at New Moon you would only consider the natal chart for instance. Thoughts on that?
---------
Quote:
so, i am back to trying to define what is a benefic and malefic to hamishs chart.. as far as venus vargottama in hamishs chart - this sounds like both you and therese view this as a negative... venus is a natural signifactor for marriage and relationship and perhaps a persons relationships with women in particular.. it would also be a symbol for artistic involvement... all this would depend on not just the sign, but the house and aspects to venus too... that would make it more personal... hamish as i think i said - is on his 3rd marriage... the last one happened on dec 31st 1999.. below is the chart for this event which took place in tanzania, africa...

Therese confirmed what I researched many years ago about vargotamma.

I will ponder the other dates you provided for Hamish's weddings.
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Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks aj,

the benefic / malefic descriptions are much like western astrology, with the exception western astrology doesn't involve rahu-ketu that much and when they do - it is a variety of views ranging from rahu - positive, ketu - negative to everything in between and reverse based on what i have read... the additional factor which is hellensitic is related to sect, so in a day chart like hamishs, mars would be considered more malefic then saturn.. mercury would be better if it was rising ahead of the sun in a day chart, as opposed to be rising after the sun.. venus is less benefic as it functions better in a night chart and when setting... this is some of my limited understanding of hellenistic astrology.. i don't know that the nature of the nodes was given near as strong attention in western astrology as it has in indian astrology...

regarding the 3 charts that are a part of the Sudarshan Chakra tri-wheel, the passage you have noted really implies the strongest of the charts is the birth chart, as opposed to the lunar and solar charts putting moon or sun as first house... i am inclined to think that the profection data which creates the 1 year dasa is gotten only off the ascendant for the 1 chart... in fact in the pdf you shared, there is no mention of running it off the 3 different ascendants...

below is the profection chart for dec 31st 1999 when hamish was married a 3rd time..



in biwheel format



the main dasa lord for 1999 would be venus.. for the month of december the sublord would be saturn, so at the time of his 3rd marriage, the dasa lords are venus-saturn..

what are you thoughts on the role of saturn in libra having venus in virgo ruling over it? it seems in terms of longevity of a relationship, the 3rd marriage of hamishs has worked out the best...
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
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Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
in fact in the pdf you shared, there is no mention of running it off the 3 different ascendants...

I don't think this is correct, the focus of the chapter on Sudarshan Chakra is prediction from the SC dasha. This chapter and all of BPHS takes a very careful reading.

Verses 21-26 speak of using the SC houses as a basis for predicting by using the dasha period in question as the first house. In essence, turning the wheel to evaluate the condition of each house, or sphere of life during that period and sub-period.

Here is my write up on what I gathered as the primary rules as outlined in ch74 and thoughts on Hamish's 3rd marriage below as well as some commentary I guess on the primary rules given in ch 74.

Right or wrong here it is...

From ch 74 v. 24-26: At the time of commencement of a Dasa, if there be benefic in the 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th, 5th, 9th and 8th, favorable effects will be experienced in the concerned year, month, etc. The Bhava, which is occupied by Rahu, or Ketu, becomes harmful. The same will be the fate of the Bhava, which is occupied by a larger number of malefics. If there are benefics in Bhavas other than the 12th or 6th, the Bhava concerned will produce favorable effects. In other words, if the benefics be in the 12th or 6th from the Bhava concerned, unfavorable effects will be derived in the related year, month, etc. If there be malefics in the 3rd, 6th and 11th from the Bhava, assuming the role of Lagna, then these three Bhavas will produce auspicious results.

Ch 74 here is essentially “turning the wheel” to the dasha of the time period under question. Houses are evaluated as generating good, bad and mixed results by the occupation of malefics or benefics in them.
The delineation rules follow for the most part Parashari principles.
1. Good results of the houses with Benefics in house 1, 4, 7, 10 or 5, 9, plus 8.
2. Good = Malefics in the 3rd 6th and 11th from ascendant of the year. (Houses 3, 6, 11 and 10 are the Upachaya houses or “houses of growth”. Traditionally malefics do well here. Benefics are good in the 3rd, 10th and 11th.
3. Bad results = Benefics in the 12th or 6th from the ascendant of the year.
4. Rahu or Ketu in any house.

1 and 2 show the good results of the houses as counted from the dasha house, or ascendant of the year and it is interesting that house 2 is missing. This must be a scribal error. These are all good houses except the 8th. The 8th house can be good for benefics in special cases and this is mentioned I believe in Phaldipeeka as astrayoga but the benefic has to be exalted, own sign etc. or beneficially aspected. My own sense is that this would also apply here. Ch 74 is quiet about malefics in the 8th but the classical scriptures are often abbreviated leaving the reader to fill in the rest or traditionally under the gurus' direction. Logic would dictate that the malefics in the 8th counted from the dasha house are bad for that house.

Items 3 and 4 indicate the bad results for the house as counted from the dasha house, or ascendant of the year. Benefics in house 6 or 12 is bad, it can be inferred that malefic planets are even worse except when in the 3rd, 6th, and 11th. Rahu and Ketu in any house spoil it.

Hamish's 3rd Marriage
Hamish’s third marriage on 12/31/1999 the main period of SC house 11, and sub of SC 12th was running. The period and sub-period ran from 12/4/1999 to 1/3/2000.

Let’s walk through the SC dasha period given above. Just the dasha, not looking at transits or anything else and sticking to very obvious and basic astrology here.

On the face of it just looking at house 11 in the SC chart nothing jumps out at me to suggest marriage. Same with the subperiod house 12. There is an aspect from Ketu and Saturn to the SC7th but this would suggest divorce rather than marriage. None of the planets in the SC12th aspect any of the houses suggesting marriage except Mars to the SC7th and this too just reinforces the suggestion of a divorce rather than a marriage.

Following the rules in Ch7 the SC7th house is the ninth from the dasha house the 11th. It is occupied singly by benefic Jupiter so the affairs of this house should prosper during the 11th house dasha. If we consider the sub-period of the SC12th the SC7th is the eighth from the 12th and still benefic Jupiter according to the rules above bodes well for the seventh house of marriage and partners if you consider Jupiter strong in the turned 8th house, but Jupiter is a great enemy of Mercury and here IMO does not do so well in the derived 8th house.

The method has a flaw. Can you see it? What about some other houses during that period? Let’s look at a house that isn’t quite so good according to the rules above and maybe James can ask Hamish what didn’t do so well as a test of Sudarshan Chakra.

I chose the SC10th house because it is one of the more complicated houses. Hamish’s SC10th is twelfth from the SC11th, the dasha house during the period in question. SC10th is occupied by 2 malefics Ketu and Mars, 3 benefics Moon, Jupiter, and Venus. Venus and the Moon are weak. Off the top I would say this would give mixed results for tenth house matters, but Ch 74 says Ketu spoils any house so taking this on face value lets predict that there were sudden and/or unexpected professional difficulties for Hamish during this subperiod, even though the SC10th is the eleventh house from the sub-period SC 12th and malefics are good here. Remember though, the Moon’s Nodes spoil any house they occupy according to Ch. 74.

Hamish's 1st Marriage
Here’s the problem. If you look at just the main period, Hamish’s first marriage was on 11/3/1969 during the beginning of the SC main period of the fifth house. The fifth house of emotions and higher education is activated as “the ascendant of the year” in the words of ch 74. The SC7th house Jupiter is the third house from the SC5th and would do well for matters of marriage in this sub-period.

Examining closer according to the rules the SC7th house occupied by Jupiter is well disposed of in most years, excepting dasha years 2 and 6 when Jupiter falls in the 6th and 12th houses respectively from the ascendant of the year (dasha house year).

There’s nothing in this method that highlights an event house from the background of everything else unless it is the sub-period, but even this fails using the ch.74 method for Hamish’s 1st wedding as the sub-period is the 5th house too.

My conclusion is that there is just not a way to differentiate actual events with this method as outlined in ch74 and the SC dasha does not reflect in my opinion Hamish’s first and third marriages at all.

Even now at the last if you invoke transiting planets there is only activation of Jupiter during Hamish's 1st marriage, not the third. Prediction even in hindsight fails here with the method as outlined in BPHS ch74.
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aj,

thanks for putting in the time and effort to come to the conclusions you do here.. your conclusions sound fairly drastic! i think either your conclusions are correct, or we are missing something in understanding it all... obviously i have not read BPHS so, i may not be able to understand chapter 74 on SC properly..

you have outlined the nature of the planets being either benefic of malefic really well here, to the point it is very easy to understand..

i am curious... does the BPHS offer any charts? the software you are using may direct our imagination to perceive this a certain way.. the astrologers at the time might have imagined it differently? i suppose i am falling back on my original comment you quote at the top of your post and which you don't believe is correct... falling an alternative view, perhaps we have been stalemated here??

AJ wrote:


The method has a flaw. Can you see it?

-----
My conclusion is that there is just not a way to differentiate actual events with this method as outlined in ch74 and the SC dasha does not reflect in my opinion Hamish’s first and third marriages at all.

Even now at the last if you invoke transiting planets there is only activation of Jupiter during Hamish's 1st marriage, not the third. Prediction even in hindsight fails here with the method as outlined in BPHS ch74.


i continue to believe the flaw in the method is using 3 different charts, as opposed to one for the primary dasa... but i can accept i am wrong on this too.. i am not sure of the flaw that you are seeing..

i do believe if the system is unable to be verified in hindsight, it is no good with foresight!

i have looked at some alternative approaches to verifying the 3rd marriage... the solar return for hamish 1999 seems to suggest the 3rd marriage the best... the tertiary progressions also have some data that lend support... there is really not much in the solar arc directions...

maybe we have to keep an open mind to the idea we don't really understand this method that was being used in the past?
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
Posts: 235

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
aj,

thanks for putting in the time and effort to come to the conclusions you do here.. your conclusions sound fairly drastic! i think either your conclusions are correct, or we are missing something in understanding it all... obviously i have not read BPHS so, i may not be able to understand chapter 74 on SC properly..

you have outlined the nature of the planets being either benefic of malefic really well here, to the point it is very easy to understand..

i am curious... does the BPHS offer any charts? the software you are using may direct our imagination to perceive this a certain way.. the astrologers at the time might have imagined it differently? i suppose i am falling back on my original comment you quote at the top of your post and which you don't believe is correct... falling an alternative view, perhaps we have been stalemated here??

i continue to believe the flaw in the method is using 3 different charts, as opposed to one for the primary dasa... but i can accept i am wrong on this too.. i am not sure of the flaw that you are seeing..

i do believe if the system is unable to be verified in hindsight, it is no good with foresight!

i have looked at some alternative approaches to verifying the 3rd marriage... the solar return for hamish 1999 seems to suggest the 3rd marriage the best... the tertiary progressions also have some data that lend support... there is really not much in the solar arc directions...

maybe we have to keep an open mind to the idea we don't really understand this method that was being used in the past?

Stalemate? Not quite yet. All I was presenting was my conclusions using the method presented in ch 74 of BPHS that I found seriously wanting.

Does that mean that Sudarshan Chakra is not a valid concept? Not necessarily. As you point out we may not know how this system was used in the past. BPHS aside from its shadowy scholarly provenance has some serious flaws internally as an astrological text. Again, all I was testing was the approach to Sudarshan given in BPHS to see if it had a sound framework for prediction that could be built upon. In India SC is used but its transmission has been oral, contained, guarded and controlled within families of practicing astrologers over generations.

Having settled at least to my satisfaction the deficiencies of the approach in BPHS, I feel much freer now to try other approaches to Sudarshan and the SC dasha.
Don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Or as Treebeard in LOTR says, Don't be hasty.

There are no chart examples given within the BPHS text though in chapter 74 of his translation and commentary of BPHS Santhanam gives an example chart and illustration of Sudarshan Chakra providing detailed astronomical data of the planets and houses and of course the Vargas. In doing a careful time search just within signs in both the tropical and sidereal*, there is no such astronomical coincidence of his given values in recorded history. Perhaps it is a typographical error but it is more likely a made-up teaching chart because Santhanam does not provide any birth data. Unlike the rest of the edition when a sample chart is presented. This is interesting he would use a teaching chart rather than an actual one as he does extensively elsewhere. I find this odd.

The sample chart only goes over the house placement of the planets within the Sudarshan chakra as a natal reading, Santhanam does not give an example of the predictive method of SC dasha.

*Santhanam mentions using Lahiri ayanamsa in the preface and in the body of the text, sampling of some of the charts in the book accuracy is within a few arc minutes. So reliability seems good.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1483
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Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just scanned this topic quickly, and noted this statement:

Quote:
Hamish's 3rd Marriage
Hamish’s third marriage on 12/31/1999 the main period of SC house 11, and sub of SC 12th was running. The period and sub-period ran from 12/4/1999 to 1/3/2000.

S.P. Khullar (and perhaps K.S. Krishnamuti as well) places the first marriage in the 7th house, the 2nd marriage in 9th, and the third marriage in 11th. Also the 11th can relate to any marriage as it is trine the 7th and supports the 7th. Western horary may do the same. I'm not sure.
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