mark made a comment a few weeks ago that surprised me.. he said something to the effect that there are many more astrologers in india using tropical system, they was commonly thought...

i have no way of knowing if this is true or not, but i got my friend to bring a few books back from india when she was visiting in new delhi.. one of them is called 'charsima of navamsha''... on the cover of the book is a picture of the zodiac signs and the dates for the signs with aries - march 21st to april 20th approx.. to me that is an indication that some folks in india are using the tropical, as opposed to the sidereal zodiac...

does anyone know what zodiac astrologers in india are using and if you could break it down in approx percentages, i would be very curious - on any info on this topic.. thanks..

Hi James

What little information I have on Indian astrology seems to confirm the popular view that it exclusively uses a sidereal zodiac, however, I think this is a brilliant topic to (re)consider.

All I can say is that when I did an ad hoc reading for an Indian guy in a restaurant a few months back, mentioning his tropical Sun sign and so on, he didn't seem surprised a bit.

It is my understanding that among the astrologers that do use a sidereal zodiac, there is little agreement as to which variation of ayanamsa is to be applied. Although I have once heard that there is a state-approved zodiac today.

Traditionally Indian astrology has always been sidereal. In recent years Ernst Wilhelm and a few others have been saying that India's astrological concepts should be used in the tropical zodiac. A handful of Indian astrologers have been experimenting with the tropical zodiac. I actually have a book one of these astrologers gave me, but can't find it at the moment. I'll look for it tomorrow, and try to post a few notes on the author's approach.

It's possible that before Ernst Wilhelm changed from being a sidereal astrologer to using Indian concepts in the tropical zodiac, no one in India considered the tropical zodiac unless they were trained in the west.

As for the ayanamsa, the Lahiri value set forth by the Indian government in 1955 is almost universally used now. Easy-to-find Lahiri tables are published each year, and astrological software generally defaults to Lahiri. But small groups of astrologers continue to use other ayanamsas, such as the one favored by B.V. Raman.

The next most favored ayanamsa is Krishnamurti which is only about 6 astrological minutes different from Lahiri. Some astrologers such as myself find it gives more exact dates for the start of Dasas and sub periods. But for most purposes the difference from Lahiri is negligible. N.C. Lahiri was one of the members of the government research team that fixed the ayanamsa. The purpose of the research was to unify festival dates in India. The government Report of the Calendar Reform Committee is available on-line.

One Mr. Y V Subba Rao gave the book "Astrology on the Moving Zodiac - The one system for the East and the West" to Mrs. Therese. In 1925 itself, his father started using tropical astrology with Vimsottari Dasha system where in no ayanamsa (zero ayanamsa) has been used in Dasa calculations too in contrast to Ernst's Tropical astrology with siderial Nakshatras where an ayanamsa is used.

Mr. Subba Rao and his father are the authors of the above book.

There was no western training or influence on his father while proposing totally zero ayanamsa tropical astrology as early as 1925.

Y.V Subba Rao got a small treatise " Vedic astrology on Tropic astrology" published by Lambert Publishers.

Map wrote:

One Mr. Y V Subba Rao gave the book "Astrology on the Moving Zodiac - The one system for the East and the West" to Mrs. Therese. In 1925 itself, his father started using tropical astrology with Vimsottari Dasha system where in no ayanamsa (zero ayanamsa) has been used in Dasa calculations too in contrast to Ernst's Tropical astrology with siderial Nakshatras where an ayanamsa is used.

Oh, yes, that's the book! I still have been unable to find the book, but you have summarized it nicely. Thank you, Map. I began corresponding with Rao, but at one point he stopped responding. I think at that time I was explaining how Vivekananda's chart worked very well in the sidereal zodiac. I don't remember exact details without seeing the book and copies of the emails.

I've found the Astrobix.com Vedic Site helpful.

H

my apologies for not replying to the many comments sooner.. thank you to everyone who offered some ideas based off my question at the top..

at the same time, i feel i am no further ahead in understanding what seems like an incredibly complex study - astrology as practiced in india!

i have read a few articles off a website that mark had linked to previously which some of you may already be familiar with here - https://shyamasundaradasa.com/index.html

i would like to qualify that i am not convinced of the merits of the above website and question the authors agenda... mostly it seems positive though...

here is another question that i have to ask.. i don't know the history of the nakshatras.. is it possible that the beginning of the practice of astrology in india started some time around the time that both the sidereal and tropical zodiac were in about the same place?

i was making an observation that some of these indian techniques could be applied in either zodiac.. i did a bit of research and see that there are astrologers doing just this.. maybe it sound sacrilegious to the followers of one or the other system, but i don't mean to be disrespectful.. i am trying to understand all of this better.. that's all..

so my original question - how many astrologers in india are using the tropical zodiac, remains an open question..

my 2nd question in this post - is it possible the practice of astrology in india coincided with a time when the sidereal and tropical zodiac were in about the same location - is open for comment for anyone who has some thoughts on this..

a 3rd question is does anyone know of a dictionary for the use of all the special terms that indian or vedic astrology uses? it would be very helpful, as instead of saying leo, they use the word sharma(sp?) and etc. etc.. it is tricky for a person reading thru any books on astrology from india.. thanks... maybe an example of what trying to read is like would help.. here is one - "...it was given as a good muhurta in panchangas as well. But Shukra was both debilitated and in sandhi. Just curious why it would even be considered a good muhurta? Is not debilitation an important factor in muhurta for marriage for the most important significator Shukra? Am curious how panchanga writers seem to have universally approved that day for muhurta."

thanks for the comments and input everyone - and thanks michael for the response to the mystery chart that you provided in the past month as well!

james_m wrote:my apologies for not replying to the many comments sooner.. thank you to everyone who offered some ideas based off my question at the top..

at the same time, i feel i am no further ahead in understanding what seems like an incredibly complex study - astrology as practiced in india!

I agree, this topic seems rather complex - and intriguing! Not least because of a potential tie-in with Eastern metaphysics, which I always found a fascinating field of study in its own right. But also because we seem to be dealing with a version of our art here that remained relatively close to the system of the ancients. It's almost as though the latter was reaching as through an unbroken, living tradition! Notwithstanding Indian practitioners putting their own spin on it over time, of course.

i have read a few articles off a website that mark had linked to previously which some of you may already be familiar with here - https://shyamasundaradasa.com/index.html

i would like to qualify that i am not convinced of the merits of the above website and question the authors agenda... mostly it seems positive though...

here is another question that i have to ask.. i don't know the history of the nakshatras.. is it possible that the beginning of the practice of astrology in india started some time around the time that both the sidereal and tropical zodiac were in about the same place?

Indeed, and this will be in accordance with what I shared above...

There is little doubt among historians that Indian astrology has its roots in the same Hellenistic predecessor like our Western astrology, although some representatives of Jyotish may look at that differently. At some early stage - when there wasn't much confusion about what zodiac to use yet, as the tropical and the sidereal versions still pretty much coincided with one another - the original system divided itself into two spatially separate approaches that went on to develop along distinct lineages.

All in all, the Western style astrologers stack with the zodiac's seasonal connections, whereas their Indian colleagues preferred the sidereal tie-in over the latter - which you may see as another East-West dichotomy.

i was making an observation that some of these indian techniques could be applied in either zodiac.. i did a bit of research and see that there are astrologers doing just this.. maybe it sound sacrilegious to the followers of one or the other system, but i don't mean to be disrespectful.. i am trying to understand all of this better.. that's all..

I think that's a sensible approach. Experimentation and intercultural synthesis always played an important role in astrology's development. What it boils down to is, either something works, or it doesn't (at least for you)... And nobody bears responsibility for your practice but yourself!

so my original question - how many astrologers in india are using the tropical zodiac, remains an open question..

my 2nd question in this post - is it possible the practice of astrology in india coincided with a time when the sidereal and tropical zodiac were in about the same location - is open for comment for anyone who has some thoughts on this..

a 3rd question is does anyone know of a dictionary for the use of all the special terms that indian or vedic astrology uses? it would be very helpful, as instead of saying leo, they use the word sharma(sp?) and etc. etc.. it is tricky for a person reading thru any books on astrology from india.. thanks... maybe an example of what trying to read is like would help.. here is one - "...it was given as a good muhurta in panchangas as well. But Shukra was both debilitated and in sandhi. Just curious why it would even be considered a good muhurta? Is not debilitation an important factor in muhurta for marriage for the most important significator Shukra? Am curious how panchanga writers seem to have universally approved that day for muhurta."

That made me LOL! No offence to anyone meant, of course, I am only too aware it is expressing my own ignorance...

thanks for the comments and input everyone - and thanks michael for the response to the mystery chart that you provided in the past month as well!

My pleasure. Let's keep this "mystery tradition" going...

thanks michael.. i am especially happy that quote made you laugh!!

regarding the history - it seems buried in the past and hard to ascertain... sometimes being open minded leaves one with hanging onto nothing in mind!

James wrote:

A 3rd question is does anyone know of a dictionary for the use of all the special terms that indian or vedic astrology uses?

Richard Houck's Astrology of Death (1994) has a good list of terms in the back of the book. Rick writes:

"Below is a list of about 1700 terms that I have accumulated over the years from a variety of sources." (p. 361)

I photocopied the list a long time ago, and still refer to it now and then...never found a term that wasn't on the list. The list is 20 double column pages.

Because the sidereal zodiac has been traditional in India from the earliest use of horoscopic astrology, I think we can assume that the majority of astrologers use that zodiac, if only because sidereal tables are published annually and available everywhere. But the bookshops also have astrology books from the west.

thanks therese,

if you have a copy of the terms and you can share it - please do.. thanks!

in this book i am reading called charisma of the navamsha, they talk about death quite a bit.. it is all connected to the 8th - whether it is a derivative house, or the specific house.. i take this to mean that death is one of the big transitions in life and they aren't afraid to talk about it.. what is life without death?

i think many of these terms are Sanskrit? is that correct?

cheers james

james_m wrote:thanks therese,

if you have a copy of the terms and you can share it - please do.. thanks!
James: I have sent you a PM regarding this.

in this book i am reading called charisma of the navamsha, they talk about death quite a bit.. it is all connected to the 8th - whether it is a derivative house, or the specific house.. i take this to mean that death is one of the big transitions in life and they aren't afraid to talk about it.. what is life without death?

In the West, all such questions are generally considered inappropriate and ethically wrong to answer via astrology. In the eastern astrological traditions, death is a less sensitive subject and it is still common in contemporary readings that life expectancy is covered in the report. The Jyotish classics devote many hundreds of sutras on techniques on tabulating life expectancy, the condition of death, survival of the mother and child during delivery and so on.

The modern trend in India is starting to follow that of the West and Jyotishis are slowly distancing themselves from commenting directly on death.

Hindu astrologers in the West tend to follow the Western ethos avoiding death and questions related to it.

The truth is that clients east and west want to know answers to these very questions. If professional astrologers won’t answer these issues clients often turn to anonymous internet forums and cafes where everyone is an expert. Anyhow, maybe an interesting discussion for the philosophy forum.