i am having trouble finding much of any personal bio on maduro.. i wanted to play around with the 2 times available for him - the 5pm and the 901pm times.. i spent most of last night running data and don't have anything conclusive to say on this, but feel mostly stymied as a result of having very little info on his personal life.. i didn't find any data on his first wife - Adriana Guerra Angulo, but did examine the day chart for his 2nd wife - Cilia Flores.. of course the idea of marrying someone older goes with cap on the descendant, which fits with the 901pm chart.. however, mercury in the 7th of the 5pm chart also works for 2 marriages.. i didn't really find anything that i felt was conclusive, one way or the other..

it will be easier to comment on juan guaido when i get round to him, which might be sooner then later given the lack of info on maduro..

Well, there are also 3 sisters of Maduro and his 3 step-sons (three sons of Cilia Flores).

With Asc in Cancer: the 3d is in Virgo and the 11th in Taurus, while the 5th in Scorpio.

With Asc in Taurus: the 3d is in Cancer and the 11th in Pisces, while the 5th in Virgo.

Again, I feel Asc/Tau fits way better IMO (with cusps of the 3d and of the 11th in fertile signs, Jupiter being in Pisces, barren Virgo, with Mercury in Sag, rather on the cusp of the 5th, etc)

mari,

i am trying to understand your thinking here...forgive me if i don't! is english a 2nd language for you? i am curious.. thanks..

you mention why you think the ascendant in taurus fist better... i would like to break it down here... children relates to 5th and 11th house according to you and 3rd relates to siblings? is this how you see it? thus you mention maduro has 3 sisters and you think this fits with cancer on the 3rd, better then virgo on the 3rd? do i have this correct?

also - you mention 3 step sons from his marriage to cilia flores.. how do you see step children factored into a chart? do you assign a particular house for step children and if so, which house??

so far as i know, maduro only has 1 son - Nicolás Maduro Guerra..
i used a day chart for his son to examine the cross aspects to the fathers chart.. i didn't find anything conclusive in this overlay although maybe on balance it slightly favours the 903pm chart for these reasons.. the important jupiter-saturn opposition lands on the angles in this chart.. i believe jupiter is a natural signifactor for children and this planet is on his ascendant.. mars, the ruler of the 5th is conjunct the midheaven, highlighting a 5th house event.. pluto is conjunct the venus-neptune conjunction found in the 5th house sign - scorpio..


with the 5pm chart, one strong connection is the venus conjunct taurus ascendant.. perhaps you can see more?



mari - if you are able to find any info on when maduro and his first wife separated, i would be very curious... again, i can't find any details on much of anything on his personal life..

is english a 2nd language for you? i am curious.. thanks..

Yes.

Yes, the the 3d siblings, the 5th Maduro's children, the 11th his step-children (the 5th from the 7th).

I'd rather see fertile signs on the cusp of his 3rd and 11th house (Cancer and Pisces) and the barren one on the cusp of the 5th (Virgo) than vice versa.

Also, I like the idea of Jupiter being in Pisces and Pisces being on the cusp of the 11th, because that brings us not only fertility, but masculine signification: and Maduro not only has 3 step-children, but all three step-children are boys. With the cusp of the 11th in Tau, we would have a fem sign and both rulers signifying girls (Moon and Venus).

Again, coming back to Virgo (the 3d if Asc/Can, the 5th if Asc/Tau): the sign is feminine, but barren; Mercury fem/mas, not fertile; Mercury in Sagittarius, not a fertile sign, but being ruled by a Strong Jupiter can grant children, rather boys or a boy (Sag). I think this picture rather fits Maduro's only son than his three sisters.

Of course, it can't be the only argument, but here too I prefer Asc in Tau.

Re: transit charts Maduro radix/son's birth.

Well, yes, Jupiter is a natural benefic giving children. If we take the Asc in Tau possibility, than we have the 5th in Virgo and Mercury in Sagittarius, Jupiter having disposition of Mercury. A strong transiting Jupiter trining the natal Jupiter (the ruler of Mercury) could fit too.

As to transits to Asc (in both cases), I'm not sure we should consider them: Maduro's not a woman, it was not his body who was giving birth. MC could be more meaningful for men, I guess.

Anyway, we'd need the solar and lunar returns to analyse properly the birth of his son IMO.

As to the outer planets, I can't say anything, I don't use them.

again, i can't find any details on much of anything on his personal life..

So far me neither. And I don't have much time now, but if I find something, I'll post it.

mari,

thanks for sharing your thoughts here.. do you know if any of the astrologers you have accessed, have a specific birth time for Leopoldo López? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopoldo_L%C3%B3pez

as for 11th as step children - i haven't heard of that before... in the hellenistic books i seem to recall the 5th or 11th can function as a house of children.. i can't cite a reference though.. do you have a reference for your 11th as step children idea?

as for the solar returns of the 903pm and 5pm time... i have looked! again, it is a mixed bag.. i am thinking it might be a good idea to start a couple of new threads, so that the focus is more specific.. venezuala - maduro and venezuala - guaido.. that way all the ideas on these 2 people can be examined on single threads devoted to them.. so, with this in mind, i am going to start this and continue on with maduro for the time being.. i will also start a thread on guaido which we can work on as well..

finally - here is an article that i thought was quite good in being fairly impartial on it all, while laying out the situation and challenge the venezuala and the world more generally face at this point in time.. venezuala seems to capture this well here..

Venezuela’s collapse is a window into how the Oil Age will unravel
https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence ... 0aadff7786

as for 11th as step children - i haven't heard of that before... in the hellenistic books i seem to recall the 5th or 11th can function as a house of children.. i can't cite a reference though.. do you have a reference for your 11th as step children idea?

Yes, I believe that in Hellenistic astrology the 11th, as a Good Spirit (hopes, help and all good stuff), can signify children - just as Jupiter, Venus, MC, the lot of children, the ruler of the lot, the lord of triplicity of Jupiter and so forth (and of course the 5th!).
(Now I don't remember much step-children, it may probably come along with a bad quality spouse, the good one being a young virgin from a good family )

But here I derived it from DSC: the 5th from the 7th, spouse's children. Much like in horary or the 8th signifying the debt or inheritance (the second from the 7th). As to this particular derivative house, I have no quote in head and I doubt it exists, although Petosiris here makes a suggestion of this kind (that is 11th signify children because this is derived):

Notice that Ptolemy and Valens use the V and XI for children as well (following Petosiris). For XI is V from the VII.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10018

Anyway, the use of the principle of the derived houses was pretty common and, I'd even say, intensive from the Late Antiquity to the Middle Ages: taking any point (say, a planet or especially a lot) and set it as a derived ASC. What we especially see in texts is the use of these derived houses from Fortune or Spirit to spot whether the malefics or benefics are in angular or cadent houses from Fortune/Spirit (personally I find it works nicely) and which houses, things like that. Can also be used this way when assessing annual profections.
I also recall the use of the derived houses from the child's chart to make a prediction for the father if he didn't have his birth data (but I can't find any link now) and so on, and that's how it later landed in horary.

Saturn indicates step-children and adoption in Hellenistic astrology.
1. It makes sense since Saturn indicates management of things belonging to others such as property and land.
2. Scientific data of cinderella effect and kin selection prove that preference of biological children can't be simply due to cultural phenomena, adoption has the obvious drawback of not continuing your genes.

As for XI indicating your own children or stepchildren, the sources are somewhat ambiguous, obviously Ptolemy 4.6 suggests that it can indicate your own children, but Valens 9.2K says it indicates the children of the wife, because it is V from VII.

Note that there is slight chance that all children were assigned to the XI because of the joy of Jupiter - generally the main ruler of children in Hellenistic astrology.

However, the X and V appear more often than the XI and IV in Hellenistic sources, which makes me think that both XI and IV come from derivative places. Obviously, one can't be certain.

do you know if any of the astrologers you have accessed, have a specific birth time for Leopoldo López?

29 Apr 1971, Caracas, 05:00 am Asc Aries

I don't know the source, but apparently many local astrologers use it:

https://www.astro-ideas.com/articulos-/ ... rta-natal/
https://www.noticiaportatil.co.ve/2015/ ... de-01.html
https://carta-natal.es/astrodata/famoso ... ?id=379895

and so on.

petosiris wrote: Valens 9.2K says it indicates the children of the wife, because it is V from VII.

Thanks for the reference!

Note that there is slight chance that all children were assigned to the XI because of the joy of Jupiter

That's what I think possible too. And, I think, because of such a broad positive meaning of the house which, besides, overlaps much with MC for the general positive "social achievements". Having children is a kind of a social achievement.

P.S.

Saturn indicates step-children and adoption in Hellenistic astrology.

Makes sense too, since Saturn is so often related (when participating) to "second-choice and flawed wives"

***

Well, anyway, here it was solely to see which of the two possible Maduro charts fits better in the three step-sons picture. So I just took a look at the 5th from the 7th. Thanks for the reference to Valens.

mari - derivative houses... yes - i understand and think they are relevant!

petosiris - thanks for your comments on the topic of 11th house and children...