skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Theft chart question
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Horary & Electional Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 447

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The main reason I suscepted a child was due to the first chart but I do think this chart seems more radical. The 5th could also be emphasizing the younger of the two suspects. I was going back and forth on gender and it was not very clear but there are feminine indicators, especially since Mecury is influenced by the Moon. Now the 6th house rulership of the Sun makes more sense also - servant. I do think it is just one person who did this but Saturn dispositing her could represent the older person influencing her behavior or maybe benefiting from it. I don't think the Sun is the other person, especially based on your description of them. Combustion is very common in charts dealing with criminals in general because they do things in secret yet out in the open and often the truth eventually is known with this signification. There was another money theft chart with the Sun involved that I can see in my mind but can't remember the specific link in Skyscript, and this chart reminded me of it a bit - it was one Deb commented on and I always remembered. The Sun represents truth and it being angular suggests the truth being made out in the open, so I do think Mr. X was correct and their decision was based on an unbiased point of view - that is how their planet is represented by being Jupiter in Libra, approaching from a sign that is beneficial to the money and resources and not really their own self interests. Libra is a sign of balance, justice and unbiased ways of thinking.

If the servant was suspended, has she returned to work there? Hopefully she is not doing it again - that would be pretty stupid. The Moon with Mercury (translating the light of the asc ruler too) is the primary indicator that she is guilty but she is also represented as a thief in every classical way I can think of. The Moon is also applying to an antiscia aspect with Venus - a loss of money that is covert. Venus as the 2nd ruler, I think is prohibited from aspecting Saturn via Jupiter (if I am seeing the ephemeris right) and Saturn is cadent anyway, so there is no other party that seems outright guilty to me. The Moon would be unlikely to describe them since a lunar person, especially in a phlegmatic sign, would more likely be quite fleshy or even obese. I think the Moon is just representing the subject matter in this case.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 20

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Tanit

Please accept my apologies for not having been able to respond earlier.I wanted to give a detailed feedback and was not somehow able to collect and jot down all the facts coherently in a proper way. I would try to answer best whatever questions you raise and supply additonal details which may shed more light on what transpired. I only refrain from discussing the exact relationship between the querent and Mr X and the family since this is a delicate matter.

"The reason I suscepted a child was due to the first chart but I do think this chart seems more radical"

The chart which is now removed was actually the second chart cast by the querent. This was cast about a month later and by then the querent's attention had been taken up by a romantic affair. I believe the chart with 5th house stress shows this. But I may be wrong.

There were at least 2 separate incidences when the querent was sure that her money/belongings were gone-
1. When her money disappeared from her wallet
2. When some stuff (I will PM you exactly what) was gone but was recovered soon when she informed MrX and Mr X's wife (lets call her Ms Y) about it. However it was Ms Y's behaviour during the recovery that made the querent suspicious of her. Querent says that when Mr X handed over the missing stuff to her, Ms Y made it a point to come rushing to the spot, leaving all her work aside.At that moment when Mr X returned the missing package, Ms Y 's face was very transparent and something like regret was clearly refected upon her features. She also uttered some words unwittingly which further strenghtened the querent's suspicions.basically these belongings were intentionally left behind by the querent to lighten her luggage when she left their house to go on a short trip to a neighbouring town but when she returned she found this specific package missing. When she informed about this to Ms Y she looked a little afraid or concerned (querent cant decide which one) and assured her that the servants wont be interested in her package and that she will surely find it. The next day was spent by the querent searching for this packet all over the house but without any success. Later towards the evening Mr X was back and recovered the package from a cupboard in which the querent had already searched twice! So naturally this made the querent wonder why she could not find the package herself? Surely she cant look in the same cupboard twice and overlook it? And if it wasnt there then who kept it back? All her suspicion thus went to Ms Y and was made stronger by the weird behavior displayed by Ms Y.

The now removed chart was cast asking only "who stole the money?" Whereas this first chart asked "who stole my belongings and money?"
Perhaps the matter and the question were most pressing while casting the 1st chart hence it reflects the situation more clearly. The second chart is perhaps marred by additional preoccupations of the querent with her love life.

Querent believes Ms Y to be a good person on the whole but having a little weakness of material things.She first started suspecting her after several instances of Ms Y enquiring the querent if she had kept her possessions locked up and safely or not. She used to enquire how much money the querent was carrying in her wallet. Back then the querent was kind of carefree about her stuff , quite sure that everyone was trustworthy. She never really was in a habit of counting the money in her bag and keeping a record. But after 2-3 of such instances she noticed that someone had been stealing from her. Her first suspect was this Ms Y because of her enquiries. It was as if Ms Y wanted to know if the querent was herself aware of how much cash she carries with her and if not then it would be easy to steal.  Ms Y does not otherwise take any personal interest in other aspects of the querent's life and their relation is primarily formal.

Querent's second suspicion was on the servants. Both coming from poor families and the younger one known to use cosmetics and treat herself to savouries in the kitchen when she thought noone was looking. Querent herself had seen her do this several times.

Another thing that went in favour of these servants were Mr X's faith in them. He even assured the querent once that they may take such small household stuff without permission but they would never steal. He even used to leave his wallet in the open and the cupboards unlocked and seemed pretty much confident in his trust.They had been working there for more than a couple of years. This is why the querent found it strange when Mr X later told her that it was indeed the servants who stole the money.

The other people of the house that is , Mr X and the child are as per the querent, were beyond suspicion.

 " There was another money theft chart with the Sun involved that I can see in my mind but can't remember the specific link in Skyscript, and this chart reminded me of it a bit - it was one Deb commented on and I always remembered "

Tanit, this must be that thread you are talking about -- http://tmp.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5696&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

I had read about Sun being associated with truth in another forum where a member made frequent use of arabic parts and their direction of their flow torwards or away from the Sun to know if someone was lying or being honest.

In this thread Deb says " Usually the Sun does not come up as the significator of a thief because the Sun is an 'open' and 'light-filled' planet which is fundamentally attached to the principle of revelation. In this chart the Sun is in detriment and cionjunct Saturn, which might describe this man as basically honest but presently corrupted because of difficult circumstances, but even such a person as this would be unlikely to uphold a false persona over a long period of time ."

So this last line is interesting and I wonder if Sun can have some such signification here in this chart? Like it may signify Ms Y who is otherwise a respected woman, and known to be honest and and truthful, especially in association with her husband Mr X , a very respected man himself. This is just one of the possibilities to which I would like to draw your attention. But in the end if you perceive this as not likely then I would trust your opinion only as I believe an experienced horary astrologer is more trustworthy than the biased opinions of the querent.


" Mr. X was correct and their decision was based on an unbiased point of view - that is how their planet is represented by being Jupiter in Libra, approaching from a sign that is beneficial to the money and resources and not really their own self interests. Libra is a sign of balance, justice and unbiased ways of thinking"

So what you say here will be a great help indeed in solving this entire matter. As the main concern of the querent is her loss of faith in the people whom she trusted. Querent agrees to what you suggest that Mr X must be just and fair but she also believes that there is a possibility of Mr X not hiding the truth for greater good ( like to save the relationship between Ms Y and the querent from getting harmed ).

" If the servant was suspended, has she returned to work there? Hopefully she is not doing it again - that would be pretty stupid."

No this thankfully did not happen but the querent has managed to lose some more things during her visit to their house even after the servants were suspended! Basically after that incident the querent was much more careful about her possessions. Once or twice after this incident she forgot some of her stuff at their home and informed Ms Y about it and asked her to keep it if she found it . But Ms Y only told her that no such stuff was left behind by the querent. And another time she found another of her belonging gone. Ms Y denied seeing it. Querent says she possibly couldnt have left it on the way and there were no servants also present that day .

"The Moon would be unlikely to describe them since a lunar person, especially in a phlegmatic sign, would more likely be quite fleshy or even obese"

Tanit I'm very much curious why you did not consider the Moon herself as the culprit here. I am interested for the physical description of the moon fits well with Ms Y.

Indeed the whole business is tricky. Suspecting Ms Y is only building unhealthy feelings of pent up resentment and unforgiveness while there is a possibility that the querent may be all wrong in her suspicions like you write in your readings.  I will look forward to what you finally conclude after reading these extra details supplied herein this post and whether you still believe it was the servant who was the real culprit.

Than you so very much again for your help. Can't stress enough how much your valuable insight is appreciated.


Last edited by Serene on Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 20

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tanit, POf and all , I was wondering if we work according to the significators based on the mutual relationships between the querent and Ms Y then she would be signified by the 3rd house ruler Mercury. But as per Tanit 's description this Mercury , whoever they are, is thin and bony. One thing I forgot to mention is that Ms Y is mentally very quick witted , and takes actions in a flash. Her mental processes are very quick and she is a great communicator. Infact there must be some Gemini or Mercury influence in her chart surely. Her ready wit and sharpness is very much mercury like.
She is also not averse to lying when she wants privacy and does it well. So while mercury isn't describing her physically it does describe her mentally.

For those who are reading this thread and may be interested in it this is the brief story - querent goes to stay over at an acquaintance's house and finds her money and stuff missing. Only people in the house are

Man (Mr X), Wife (Ms Y), Child and 2 Servants.

Mr X is ruled out as the culprit. And so is the child in all probablitity considering their integrity and also the clues provided by the kind of stuff stolen that can be of use only to a female. Querent discussed this with Mr X. He thus suspended the servants. But querent found some more belongings missing after that. But it is not sure if these were stolen too or if they were somehow lost by the querent in some other way

[b]Edit: Just to remove any confusion about the 2 charts, i just checked and found that the chart that has been removed is not radical as per the planetary hour agreement also. Where as this current chart agrees to this check.[/b]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
Posts: 231

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It’s a puzzling case, Serenity, thanks for the PM!

If I’m not mistaken there is translation of light – Mars receives the Moon by his domicile, the Moon carries light of Mars to Mercury. Also are there some collections of light as well? But here, I’m not sure – Venus receives Jupiter by domicile but Mercury has no dignity (in day triplicity) -- nevertheless, can Mercury receive Jupiter? Another one; can Saturn collect light of Venus? Between Jupiter and Saturn, yes (I’m looking at Venus, Jupiter and Saturn trio). Could someone help me on these? Thanks!

Serenity, I have a few private details so I will send PM later.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
Posts: 231

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Tanit3333

The Moon with Mercury (translating the light of the asc ruler too) is the primary indicator that she is guilty but she is also represented as a thief in every classical way I can think of.


Sorry, I missed the above... So this means there’s no collection of lights (Tanit would have spotted them).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 20

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi PoF so what do you understand from this collection of light? Do you think it is relevant here?

One more question I had was about Venus in the 11th house of associations / social circle. Quoting from Skyscript horary section by Deb, " Lily called it the house of 'comfort and relief' and used it to represent" places where we gain security and restoration - such as a safe harbour in shipping charts. Historically it is associated with the king's favourites.” This 11th house position of Venus is somewhat not relating well to the servant in my mind but it does fit well to Mr X's house and Ms Y . Here i am equating the word "king" to mean someone very highly esteemed and with a high authority which applies to Mr X, and Ms Y being their associate/counsellor. I hope my assumption does not sound far fetched as it is culturally also relevant in my country. Can Tanit , you or some other kind member explain this? What am I missing.?

Confused Leery
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
Posts: 231

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Serene wrote:
Hi PoF so what do you understand from this collection of light? Do you think it is relevant here?



Yes it is very important, Serene. . . I will send a PM to you and Tanit tonight.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 447

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

It’s a puzzling case, Serenity, thanks for the PM!

If I’m not mistaken there is translation of light – Mars receives the Moon by his domicile, the Moon carries light of Mars to Mercury. Also are there some collections of light as well? But here, I’m not sure – Venus receives Jupiter by domicile but Mercury has no dignity (in day triplicity) -- nevertheless, can Mercury receive Jupiter? Another one; can Saturn collect light of Venus? Between Jupiter and Saturn, yes (I’m looking at Venus, Jupiter and Saturn trio). Could someone help me on these? Thanks!

Serenity, I have a few private details so I will send PM later.


I am in a Venus profection and have an awful Venus, and when Venus went sour, life dumped a lot of trouble in my lap and I am not keeping up with anything in here. I haven't had time to look at PMs and probably won't until November. I thought I already mentioned the Moon translating light of Mars to Mercury and that putting more emphasis on Mercury as the thief. The Moon is always co-sig of the matter and Moon here emphasizes losses to the querent and trouble to their psyche/happiness, etc (querent in the 12th too) and it is giving the light of the querent to the thief, where the thief prefects the matter, but someone retrograde, peregrine and combust completes (or ruins, I guess) the question/matter in bad and dysfunctional ways (guilty ways). To me, this combined is the primary answer to the question. Notice too that the thief does not receive the querent - this is similar to the relationship of Mercury and Jupiter where Jupiter does not "like" Mercury. The thief maybe does not care for the querent in some respect, although there is a loose sextile, or does not care if their actions hurt the querent perhaps. To me, when someone approaches from someone's fall, the other party sees them with disappointment (Jupiter towards Mercury here) - they may have once cared for them but something the other party did made that change (fall from grace, etc.), or maybe the other party already saw them in bad ways and has been repeatedly disappointed by them. Detriment to me is a bit different, where the other party can sometimes see them as an enemy, hates them, does not understand them, or just basically does not care for them. Frawley would say the reverse (the sign you approach from indicates feelings) - where you approach from is important too but how the other party views you is also important. Approaching from a sign that someone does not like could mean the querent also just does not behave in a way that she actively wishes to please the thief or have a good relationship with them, for example, so it can work in negative ways for both involved when someone applies from a sign of the other's bad dignity. It usually has some meaning though and I think is probably important in understanding some of motive of the thief. Maybe the thief did it to this person because they just plain old did not like them, or how they perceived they treated them. There is also an unequal reception here, as can be the case in difficult situations between two people, and I imagine the thief probably felt they behaved in ways that were great towards the querent (which they feel was the opposite of what they got in return?) or that their behavior was in some way justified, since they approach from the querent's exaltation.

Collection of light occurs when two planets do not normally aspect and a third planet brings them together by receiving both of their aspects, and in doing so perfecting the matter on their behalf. Jupiter, as I said already, is emphasized in a positive way and receives the light of Venus before Venus aspects Saturn, if the ephemeris I looked at was correct (I didn't test it out like I normally do by fast forwarding the chart). It would make sense, since Jupiter is less degrees by minutes than Saturn also and if it aspected Saturn before Venus, then that would still be prohibition, so in either case it would have to be prohibition. So prohibition, not collection of light, and Mercury is retrograde, it is moving away from Jupiter and towards combustion in the chart, so Jupiter would not collect its light (and collecting the light of such an afflicted planet would be hard to lead to anything positive for that planet) but the strainful square between them with Jupiter not receiving Mercury due to Mecury being in the sign of Jupiter's fall suggests disappointment for Jupiter towards Mercury and Jupiter wanting to incite justice towards them (Jupiter on an angle in Libra in the 7th). Is Jupiter prohibiting Saturn from Venus because it is protecting Saturn? Possibly, as there is mutual reception between them, but I don't see great emphasis on Saturn as the guilty party here, other than ansticia Moon and being dispositor of Mercury, meaning it has influence over its behavior. Maybe Saturn was a bad influence on Mercury but that does not excuse Mercury's behavior, basically. It could also be dispositor just because it is emphasizing their shared work position and entanglement in the situation. Saturn in the day and in the 9th aspecting two benefics, and being received by the greater, is highly mitigated and not what I would call particularly malefic. It also does not make a Ptolemaic aspect to the querent or the Moon. My guess is they may have somehow influenced the situation through their own behavior somehow (such as saying bad things about customers), but that behavior is not likely outright the way that the thief was because Saturn is cadent and, again mitigated, making it a nicer or more honest sort of Saturn. They may have even been the primary reason the thief was caught because they were honest about interactions between them, for example.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
Posts: 231

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tanit, thank you so much for writing the detailed explanations. Your description of Jupiter and Saturn is very interesting and solved some of my puzzling questions. I’m looking forward to see you again in November.

Take care!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
Posts: 231

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.

Hi Serene, my initial overall reading (via PM) is still the same. In regards to what Tanit said on Oct 10th about Saturn as highly mitigated and not particularly malefic -- that makes sense and I am now adding it to the existing Saturn profile. I’ve placed Saturn as Mercury’s mental state (at various stages) and am not identifying Saturn as any particular person.

Also I’ve just remembered when doing a missing item horary, 11th house represents a guest bedroom. So in that room the thief found both Venus and P of F.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Horary & Electional Astrology All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated