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Theft chart question
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 724

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The main reason I suscepted a child was due to the first chart but I do think this chart seems more radical. The 5th could also be emphasizing the younger of the two suspects. I was going back and forth on gender and it was not very clear but there are feminine indicators, especially since Mecury is influenced by the Moon. Now the 6th house rulership of the Sun makes more sense also - servant. I do think it is just one person who did this but Saturn dispositing her could represent the older person influencing her behavior or maybe benefiting from it. I don't think the Sun is the other person, especially based on your description of them. Combustion is very common in charts dealing with criminals in general because they do things in secret yet out in the open and often the truth eventually is known with this signification. There was another money theft chart with the Sun involved that I can see in my mind but can't remember the specific link in Skyscript, and this chart reminded me of it a bit - it was one Deb commented on and I always remembered. The Sun represents truth and it being angular suggests the truth being made out in the open, so I do think Mr. X was correct and their decision was based on an unbiased point of view - that is how their planet is represented by being Jupiter in Libra, approaching from a sign that is beneficial to the money and resources and not really their own self interests. Libra is a sign of balance, justice and unbiased ways of thinking.

If the servant was suspended, has she returned to work there? Hopefully she is not doing it again - that would be pretty stupid. The Moon with Mercury (translating the light of the asc ruler too) is the primary indicator that she is guilty but she is also represented as a thief in every classical way I can think of. The Moon is also applying to an antiscia aspect with Venus - a loss of money that is covert. Venus as the 2nd ruler, I think is prohibited from aspecting Saturn via Jupiter (if I am seeing the ephemeris right) and Saturn is cadent anyway, so there is no other party that seems outright guilty to me. The Moon would be unlikely to describe them since a lunar person, especially in a phlegmatic sign, would more likely be quite fleshy or even obese. I think the Moon is just representing the subject matter in this case.
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
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Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The Moon would be unlikely to describe them since a lunar person, especially in a phlegmatic sign, would more likely be quite fleshy or even obese"

Tanit I'm very much curious why you did not consider the Moon herself as the culprit here. I am interested for the physical description of the moon fits well with Ms Y.

Thanks for your help.


Last edited by Serene on Mon May 27, 2019 5:55 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
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Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Post removed on querent's request
Sorry for any inconvenience Confused


Last edited by Serene on Mon May 27, 2019 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
Posts: 317

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It’s a puzzling case, Serenity, thanks for the PM!

If I’m not mistaken there is translation of light – Mars receives the Moon by his domicile, the Moon carries light of Mars to Mercury. Also are there some collections of light as well? But here, I’m not sure – Venus receives Jupiter by domicile but Mercury has no dignity (in day triplicity) -- nevertheless, can Mercury receive Jupiter? Another one; can Saturn collect light of Venus? Between Jupiter and Saturn, yes (I’m looking at Venus, Jupiter and Saturn trio). Could someone help me on these? Thanks!

Serenity, I have a few private details so I will send PM later.
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
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Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Tanit3333

The Moon with Mercury (translating the light of the asc ruler too) is the primary indicator that she is guilty but she is also represented as a thief in every classical way I can think of.


Sorry, I missed the above... So this means there’s no collection of lights (Tanit would have spotted them).
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
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Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi PoF so what do you understand from this collection of light? Do you think it is relevant here?


Confused Leery


Last edited by Serene on Mon May 27, 2019 5:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
Posts: 317

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Serene wrote:
Hi PoF so what do you understand from this collection of light? Do you think it is relevant here?



Yes it is very important, Serene. . . I will send a PM to you and Tanit tonight.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 724

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

It’s a puzzling case, Serenity, thanks for the PM!

If I’m not mistaken there is translation of light – Mars receives the Moon by his domicile, the Moon carries light of Mars to Mercury. Also are there some collections of light as well? But here, I’m not sure – Venus receives Jupiter by domicile but Mercury has no dignity (in day triplicity) -- nevertheless, can Mercury receive Jupiter? Another one; can Saturn collect light of Venus? Between Jupiter and Saturn, yes (I’m looking at Venus, Jupiter and Saturn trio). Could someone help me on these? Thanks!

Serenity, I have a few private details so I will send PM later.


I am in a Venus profection and have an awful Venus, and when Venus went sour, life dumped a lot of trouble in my lap and I am not keeping up with anything in here. I haven't had time to look at PMs and probably won't until November. I thought I already mentioned the Moon translating light of Mars to Mercury and that putting more emphasis on Mercury as the thief. The Moon is always co-sig of the matter and Moon here emphasizes losses to the querent and trouble to their psyche/happiness, etc (querent in the 12th too) and it is giving the light of the querent to the thief, where the thief prefects the matter, but someone retrograde, peregrine and combust completes (or ruins, I guess) the question/matter in bad and dysfunctional ways (guilty ways). To me, this combined is the primary answer to the question. Notice too that the thief does not receive the querent - this is similar to the relationship of Mercury and Jupiter where Jupiter does not "like" Mercury. The thief maybe does not care for the querent in some respect, although there is a loose sextile, or does not care if their actions hurt the querent perhaps. To me, when someone approaches from someone's fall, the other party sees them with disappointment (Jupiter towards Mercury here) - they may have once cared for them but something the other party did made that change (fall from grace, etc.), or maybe the other party already saw them in bad ways and has been repeatedly disappointed by them. Detriment to me is a bit different, where the other party can sometimes see them as an enemy, hates them, does not understand them, or just basically does not care for them. Frawley would say the reverse (the sign you approach from indicates feelings) - where you approach from is important too but how the other party views you is also important. Approaching from a sign that someone does not like could mean the querent also just does not behave in a way that she actively wishes to please the thief or have a good relationship with them, for example, so it can work in negative ways for both involved when someone applies from a sign of the other's bad dignity. It usually has some meaning though and I think is probably important in understanding some of motive of the thief. Maybe the thief did it to this person because they just plain old did not like them, or how they perceived they treated them. There is also an unequal reception here, as can be the case in difficult situations between two people, and I imagine the thief probably felt they behaved in ways that were great towards the querent (which they feel was the opposite of what they got in return?) or that their behavior was in some way justified, since they approach from the querent's exaltation.

Collection of light occurs when two planets do not normally aspect and a third planet brings them together by receiving both of their aspects, and in doing so perfecting the matter on their behalf. Jupiter, as I said already, is emphasized in a positive way and receives the light of Venus before Venus aspects Saturn, if the ephemeris I looked at was correct (I didn't test it out like I normally do by fast forwarding the chart). It would make sense, since Jupiter is less degrees by minutes than Saturn also and if it aspected Saturn before Venus, then that would still be prohibition, so in either case it would have to be prohibition. So prohibition, not collection of light, and Mercury is retrograde, it is moving away from Jupiter and towards combustion in the chart, so Jupiter would not collect its light (and collecting the light of such an afflicted planet would be hard to lead to anything positive for that planet) but the strainful square between them with Jupiter not receiving Mercury due to Mecury being in the sign of Jupiter's fall suggests disappointment for Jupiter towards Mercury and Jupiter wanting to incite justice towards them (Jupiter on an angle in Libra in the 7th). Is Jupiter prohibiting Saturn from Venus because it is protecting Saturn? Possibly, as there is mutual reception between them, but I don't see great emphasis on Saturn as the guilty party here, other than ansticia Moon and being dispositor of Mercury, meaning it has influence over its behavior. Maybe Saturn was a bad influence on Mercury but that does not excuse Mercury's behavior, basically. It could also be dispositor just because it is emphasizing their shared work position and entanglement in the situation. Saturn in the day and in the 9th aspecting two benefics, and being received by the greater, is highly mitigated and not what I would call particularly malefic. It also does not make a Ptolemaic aspect to the querent or the Moon. My guess is they may have somehow influenced the situation through their own behavior somehow (such as saying bad things about customers), but that behavior is not likely outright the way that the thief was because Saturn is cadent and, again mitigated, making it a nicer or more honest sort of Saturn. They may have even been the primary reason the thief was caught because they were honest about interactions between them, for example.
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
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Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tanit, thank you so much for writing the detailed explanations. Your description of Jupiter and Saturn is very interesting and solved some of my puzzling questions. I’m looking forward to see you again in November.

Take care!
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
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Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.

Hi Serene, my initial overall reading (via PM) is still the same. In regards to what Tanit said on Oct 10th about Saturn as highly mitigated and not particularly malefic -- that makes sense and I am now adding it to the existing Saturn profile. I’ve placed Saturn as Mercury’s mental state (at various stages) and am not identifying Saturn as any particular person.

Also I’ve just remembered when doing a missing item horary, 11th house represents a guest bedroom. So in that room the thief found both Venus and P of F.
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

....

Last edited by Serene on Mon May 27, 2019 6:00 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
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Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Serene,

I sent you PMs. Very Happy
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 724

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hi Serene, my initial overall reading (via PM) is still the same. In regards to what Tanit said on Oct 10th about Saturn as highly mitigated and not particularly malefic -- that makes sense and I am now adding it to the existing Saturn profile. I’ve placed Saturn as Mercury’s mental state (at various stages) and am not identifying Saturn as any particular person.

To me, aspects indicate activity/goings on and often do represent encounters with individuals. Mental state is signified more so by the placement of the planet of the person, such as house and sign. If Saturn were only a dispositor without aspect I might agree it could indicate emotional influences only.

For example, the Moon in fall in the 8th and the querent in the 12th signify anguish of mind for the querent over the matter. I personally think the horary would suggest that the querent should remove themselves from the situation completely because it has caused too much emotional disturbance and I don't think that can be amended, regardless of who is at fault (and I do not agree with others on who is at fault via PM, to be honest). The querent is unlikely to view the matter objectively and is very emotionally involved.
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Part of Fortune



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Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit3333 wrote:
For example, the Moon in fall in the 8th and the querent in the 12th signify anguish of mind for the querent over the matter. I personally think the horary would suggest that the querent should remove themselves from the situation completely because it has caused too much emotional disturbance and I don't think that can be amended, regardless of who is at fault (and I do not agree with others on who is at fault via PM, to be honest). The querent is unlikely to view the matter objectively and is very emotionally involved.


The situation here is a bit different and I will explain:

First of all, none of us in this forum know who is the real querent of this chart. All I know is the chart was erected by the Original Poster at the request of the querent.

Secondly, Serene (OP) to my knowledge is not emotionally disturbed about the theft… or I should say not the way you have described. On the contrary, she is just as eager as I am about learning horary. She and the querent really wanted to find out the culprit by means of using horary as a tool. As a result, Serene also worked on her own and we both agreed the same person is the culprit and she (OP) would like to see that I post my analysis now.


Serene wrote:
Dear PoF , your comments about the chart got me thinking that perhaps this chart does not relate as well to the situation as the 1st chart made on this subject by the querent. The two charts asked two slightly different questions . 1st chart question was - "who stole my belongings and the money?" But soon after asking this question the belongings were recovered. So a second chart was made asking "who stole the money?" I have a feeling now that this first chart may be a clearer map of what actually happened . In this chart the querent is also rightly placed in house 12th. Moon in house 8th. House 5th positions of the 2nd chart are not sitting well with the whole situation. I am posting the first chart now and will come back and post my reading of it later. Perhaps I should remove the 2nd chart altogether? Sincere apologies for any confusion.
I will also soon post some background on the forum for all to read.


According to the above quote by Serene, we know that there were two separate incidents in the past. The first incident was when someone stole the querent’s money and belongings. The second incident was discovery of belongings (without money) by Mr. X (husband). There were several people lived in that household but we narrow it down to two suspects: The servant and the wife (Ms. Y).

The original chart (Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018) was now eradicated. My reading is based on the new chart (Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018) and that is the chart currently available for viewing. I sent my conclusion via PM to Serene on Tue. 9th of October saying Mercury represents Ms. Y (wife) and she was the culprit. I mentioned a few other things I saw in the chart (my thoughts are derived from Tanit’s replies). Since then I worked on a few more details and added to the original PM for posting. I also subtracted some sections from the original PM for privacy reasons.

Mr. X is represented by Sagittarius/Jupiter (9th) and as Serene pointed out his wife, Ms. Y is represented by 3rd house, which is Gemini/ Mercury (7th from 9th). 3rd and 6th are natural houses of Mercury but here, 6th house shows Leo ascendant so the Sun is representing servant. However, Virgo is intercepted in 6th house. This is a very interesting contradiction because Mercury is traditionally indicated as servant/knave and the Sun is signified as master/king. Here, these two are mutually applying to each other and I think this is why the traditional placement of rulerships is not required: The Sun had given Mercury combustion – the meaning is the Sun (servant) is a red herring or false lead. Querent originally thought of the servant as the thief blocking the real culprit who is Mercury. With additional incidents occurring later, we now come to believe that the wife is Mercury.


Summary of the argument in favor of “Mercury is Wife”:

1. She is radical 3rd house, Gemini at the cusp. That’s 7th from 9th (house of her husband, Mr. X).

2. Leo at the cusp of 6th house (and not Mercury).

3. Description by Lilly’s C.A. page 75, under corporature: “Mercury with the Sun -- person is more genteel”. I think Mercury being a genteel person rather than vulgar (in the old-fashioned sense of the word) indicates Ms. Y rather than the servant.

4. Another book by Lilly called “INTRODUCTION TO ASTROLOGY” page 212: “if the significator is in the 10th, it is a person of respectable circumstances”.

Both planets are in 10th but here, Mercury is retrograde and this could be read as Ms. Y has done theft repeatedly (as OP has mentioned other missing items -- posted: Thu Oct 04, 2018).


The argument in favor of “Mercury is the Servant”:

1. Mercury is a natural ruler of 6th house.

2. Virgo is intercepted in 6th house.



The Moon shows the emotional state of our querent and also it might be possible (?) that detriment Moon who is in via combusta shows various events of action by Ms. Y. (Cancer is at the cusps of 4th and 5th house). Tanit has mentioned “the Moon is also applying to an antiscia aspect with Venus”. It’s interesting to see the Moon conjunct 8th house of other people’s property. Furthermore Venus (19:00 Aquarius) conjunct cusp of 8th (11 Taurus 16’) by Antiscion.

4th house might indicate she is a housewife and 5th is Venus’s Joy which could be reflecting a housewife’s tastes, she likes luxury items… She might even like to go out to cafés, restaurants, shopping and other fun things. Venus and PoF (querent's money and beautiful items) are placed in radix 11th (represents the guestroom in horary). You brought to her house (4th) what she needs, money and beautiful items; the Moon taking light of Mars (querent) giving these to Mercury(Ms. Y).

Serene, you wrote Mr. X might be hiding the real culprit. I too wonder if Mr. X somehow knew about his wife’s conduct . . . earlier I posted that Venus is in its own terms and approaching trine to Jupiter in Libra. That could indicate that the stolen belongings would be recovered. As a matter of fact one of the items had been discovered by Mr. X , Jupiter. Jupiter being in Venus sign in 7th (natural house of thief as well as spouse’s house) might show his concerns and distress over theft of Venus.

Mercury Rx is 12:54 in Capricorn and its Antiscion is 17:06 in Sagittarius (when Mercury is retrograde, its Antiscion goes forward). Venus (19:00) and Saturn (20:29) already have encountered Mercury’s antiscion sometimes back. When Venus perfected its conjunction with Mercury’s antiscion this could be indicating the hidden action of the first incident when both querent’s money and belongings were stolen (here retrograde Mercury had a mind of its own).

However, I wonder if when Saturn joined Mercury’s Antiscion that’s when Saturn’s “influence” over Mercury kicked off. I think it is shown by the very interesting trio of Venus, Jupiter and Saturn. Mercury with Saturn’s influence shows Ms. Y’s action was somewhat mitigated by Jupiter who rules 9th house where Saturn resides … which led to the second incident that the belongings (without money) were recovered by Mr. X.
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Post deleted on the request of the querent
Apologies for the same


Last edited by Serene on Mon May 27, 2019 5:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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