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Venus in pisces, but jupiter is in Venus' sign of detriment?

 
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EleanorLouise



Joined: 16 Jun 2018
Posts: 61

Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:25 am    Post subject: Venus in pisces, but jupiter is in Venus' sign of detriment? Reply with quote

I have a scenario that I am trying to understand.

Planets in houses are like guests and the ruler of the house is like the host/hostess. The Guest has to abide by the hostess/host's house rules, but the host is expected to treat the planet well.

What type of treatment would (themes) Venus get form Jupiter, if Jupiter is in s sign of venus' detriment would that affect how well Jupiter treats Venus? But then Venus is exalted in pisces overall (while I know some practice exact degree exaltation, I stick with just sign.)

Would Jupiter be the type of host to give venus a filet mignon but spit on it before giving it to her? Would Jupiter give venus silk sheets, but wash it with a detergent she is allergic to?

I know weird scenarios, but I need like a little "skit" of how Jupiter might treat his guest.
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EleanorLouise



Joined: 16 Jun 2018
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Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:49 am    Post subject: Re: Venus in pisces, but jupiter is in Venus' sign of detrim Reply with quote

double post
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 396

Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is ultimately a reception topic. I would recommend watching Robert Hand's Youtube on reception. He talks about this idea about rulers within the discussion and he is a no-nonsense astrologer with some charts from famous people as examples. Discussions in the forum on reception may help you understand this better too, and there have been a lot in various areas of the forums.

I don't see dispositors as just being a host. Dispositors rule over that planet, so that planet looks to its ruler on how to behave and sometimes rulers can be forceful over the other planet.

In my own chart, I have two poor planets that are ruled by essentially good planets. In particular, my very difficult Saturn in Virgo in the 3rd (peregrine and stationary) is received via trine by its ruler, Mercury, which has accidental and essential dignity. My Mercury directs Saturn in ways that helps it to perform better so that it is less malefic. How this plays out in my chart is overcoming disadvantages in communicating and learning due to autism. I went from an almost mute child who performed poorly in primary school to a licensed scientist with higher degrees. Had my Saturn been ruled by Mercury in Pisces or Sagittarius, I likely would have had much more difficulty in dealing with my disability. Mercury's influence does not negate Saturn being poorly placed but it is said to help bring something more useful or even positive from it.

This concept is more clear in horary than in natal charts when telling a tale, I find, but my understanding is that the dispositor (here Jupiter) of a planet (here Venus) is like a host and will do its best to take care of or please its guest (there are exceptions). In a question involving friendship, if Venus were the querent and Jupiter the quesited, I would think the querent is looking to the quesited on the relationship, because Jupiter lords over it and is also a superior. Jupiter would care a lot about Venus (and maybe even love them) because it receives it by domicile. When you care about someone, you do your best to treat them well. However, if Jupiter was in Gemini and Venus in Sagittarius, they would be in opposition and Jupiter would be in detriment. This could be a friend that Venus has conflict with a lot, despite the fact that Jupiter cares for them, and Jupiter keeps doing bad things to mess up the relationship, such as the ways Jupiter does when ill dignified, such as what Lilly would say - is hypochritical, sanctimonious, careless, never pleased, etc. Venus could be resentful and Jupiter may get some vague arguments or disagreements from Venus (since an opp with Venus is hardly hostile). Since Jupiter is in a sign Venus does not care for, Venus might not be as invested in the relationship but for some reason feels controlled by Jupiter and cannot get away from their influence. Since Venus also has no essential dignity, it will likely not be very positive in the relationship either. Maybe Venus in Sagittarius is too busy being on adventures or is a flake and never has time for Jupiter. Both are kind of needy in the situation but neither can provide what the other needs. If you have ever seen the HBO TV show "Girls," I think you could pick a friendship on there and this would represent it pretty well. What if Venus was in Pisces and Jupiter in Cancer? They trine and are both essentially fantastic - a lovely friendship, full of balance, beauty, caring for one another, happiness, harmony. Venus gains even more strength from Jupiter but is itself already in good control of its power because it is in exaltation. It does not need Jupiter but Jupiter is an added source of strength.

It depends on the essential dignity of the dispositor regarding treatment as well as aspect and even the planets involved. A trine and sextile is always friendly, regardless of rulership, but a dispositor in opposition or square to the planet it rules is an aspect of discord. If a dispositor was ill dignifed and in opposition to the planet it ruled, it would likely have a negative influence on that other planet. Receiving it by domicile would lessen the negatively but the planet being ruled by it is under its influence and looks to it for aid/direction, which would be from an energy source that is not good. In contrast, a dispositor that is well dignified and in friendly aspect with it, it will be a better influence. No aspect and good dignity may still be an aid but generally this is a weaker influence because it cannot "see" that planet. Planets that make no Ptolemic aspect tend to be like neighbors who never speak, so if you think of it like a host, it would be one that maybe leaves nice things but is never around.

Certain planets get along better than others. Mars is unfriendly by nature to Saturn, for example, whereas Mars is friendly to Venus. So Mars as dispositor of Saturn might behave a bit differently than Mars dispositor to Venus.

Also, mutual reception negates being under host agreement. A situation involving death indicators with mutual reception would not make a dispositor behave well or act as a friendly host at all. Deb has stressed this to me several times and I have seen it in horary.

I don't think Venus and Jupiter is the best example because they are both pretty friendly planets, generally speaking, and even their oppositions are hardly that difficult.
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Donna Chang



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 62
Location: San Francisco

Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for raising this topic Eleanor, I like discussing planetary energies in terms of hosts and guests, disgruntled or otherwise.

Tanit, thanks for the remarks about mutual reception, I need to remember that.

Every planet in my chart except for mars and the moon is received by planets in the twelfth house. The most dignified is Jupiter in the 11th, but received by venus in 12. I have had my share of 11th hour saves, but groups are difficult for me as are friendships (I have autism.)

Curious to know if a 'final' depositor is traditional, but I wonder if it would be the director of the "skit" as Eleanor put it.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 396

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe almuten, aka lord of geniture, would be more common classically. I don't remember reading about final dispositors in classic texts but I could be mistaken. An almuten is the planet with the most essential and accidental strength, such as your Jupiter. I don't remember what Ptolemy said about the almuten but Lilly emphasized them especially in the appearance and nature/personality of the person. It seems logical it would be the most significant planet at describing the person and if it disposits a planet, it will likely do so with some emphasis (and perhaps their unique qualities). Some people have planets with similar strengths and Lilly would say the nature of the person would be a blending of those strong planets.

You are lucky Venus is well behaved and tucked away with the spectrum. If I could make a chart of a Hobbit I think they would have Venus in Taurus in the 12th house. You are probably a good cook and keep a cozy home. Mine is angular and in every way out of shape. I hate to cook and live alone and keep a spartan lifestyle. With time I have improved my social graces, though I was a very ridiculous child and into my 20s I often made a fool of myself in how I behaved, acted and dressed. My Venus in Aries in the 10th is disposited and conjunct by Mars in Aries in a day chart, oriental. One of my sisters has Venus in Taurus in the 12th and she is very private and asexual but she also is more of a people pleaser than I am and gets herself into less trouble in social situations. She may be on the spectrum like me but it was never as apparent. I am a little like Temple Grandin's chart a bit where Venus is in fall in Virgo but also conjunct its dispositor Mercury. I think in our situation part of that strength is in coming to terms with who we are and accepting that we are different rather than trying to be someone else. I never really saw my Venus as strengthened by Mars like Hand would say, but it does emphasize that I am different in the ways of Venus. I am currently in a Venus profection after a Mercury one and I have gone through a depression and have been low in energy since it started, after an easier Mercury year. In looking back, my Venus years are never very good, so I don't see it as a positive influence in my chart.

I don't think the 12th is always as bad as it seems. Often it can show a solitary person with a rich internal life.
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Donna Chang



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 62
Location: San Francisco

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was a pleasure to read Tanit, thank you. I was pretty sure final depositor was not classical, it's a little too pat.

You are absolutely right about the homebody thing, and I don't get myself into many scrapes, but my mercury is in the 12th so when I do socialize with more than 2 people I am so uncomfortable that I will say the wrong thing and make others feel awkward (or be too provocative.) But it was nice to hear something positive about venus in 12th.

"I think in our situation part of that strength is in coming to terms with who we are and accepting that we are different rather than trying to be someone else." This should be the official motto of every school in the country, special needs or otherwise. Having mercury in gemini has given me insight and acceptance of my mental abilities, atypical as they may be. And you have mercury in virgo.....interesting. I will say I sometimes wish I had a more 'dynamic' chart like yours, which probably makes you roll your eyes. I have no fire in my chart. And my home isn't quite the sanctuary I wish, with saturn retrograde and neptune in 4th. There is always someone here who needs some degree of care, making me feel stuck sometimes.
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