skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Derivative Houses - Interwoven With Normal Houses

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
petosiris



Joined: 08 Oct 2017
Posts: 87

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:34 am    Post subject: Derivative Houses - Interwoven With Normal Houses Reply with quote

The derivative places of Asclepius' Oktatropos in Book IX in the Anthology of Valens are well known. What I have discovered is that derivative houses come earlier and I think they are actually more strongly presented in the Dodekatropos according to Hermes. I am sure they are the source of the meanings of the IV and VII that have survived into the modern tradition.

I will present a translation of the summary from Chris Brennan's book:

''First - Helm, fortune, soul, way of life, siblings
Second - hopes/expectations
Third - action, siblings.
Fourth - Foundation of happiness, paternal possessions, slaves.
Fifth - Good Fortune.
Sixth - Daimonic [Fortune], punishment, injury.
Seventh - death, wife
Eight - life, livelihood.
Ninth - travel, living abroad
Tenth - fortune, livelihood, life, children, procreation, action/occupation, esteem, authority, ruling
Eleventh - Good Spirit
Twelfth - Bad Spirit, pre-ascension, livelihood, submission of slaves
''

Brennan, Chris (2017). Hellenistic astrology: the study of fate and fortune. Amor Fati Publications, Denver, Colorado, p. 341

I also believe that later authors like Valens used some and disregarded other derivatives. For example Valens does not mention I in any connection with siblings (presumably because it highly unpractical to use the same house), but he does actually add more derivatives.

People should also be aware of another popular Hellenistic scheme. I highly suspect it comes from Petosiris, as Julian of Laodicea ascribes to him the doctrine that the declines indicate the past, while the successions indicate the future for the respective angle. This is why Dorotheus ignores all places except the angles, initiations unlike nativities are one time events.

I - Early/Birth
IV - End/Death
VII - Later/Old Age
X - Middle/Middle Age

II - After Early
V - After End
VIII - After Later
XI - After Middle

III - Before End
VI - Before Later
IX - Before Middle
XII - Before Early

Siblings are given around the time you are. Slaves usually come with the household (before birth) for both the native and the wife. Without the IV you would not exist - truly The Foundation.

It seems to me that the action of each partner corresponds to creating the household and children. They will meet at the square, which is around the middle. Valens is only partly wrong including the wife in the X. I will cite only the necessary places to show their conceptualization here. According to Valens, IV - Parents and Children VII - Living Abroad and Wife, X - Children, VI and XII - Slaves aside from the usual ones (yes he uses 4 places for children...)

So let's talk derivatives.

I - Native, I from siblings, IV from children, X from parents, VII from wife and grandparents
IV - Parents, VII from native's great-grandparents (you can actually do this infinitely, but it stops making sense at one cycle), X from native's wife and grandparents
VII - Wife*, native's grandchildren - X from children (the person would be at old age here), the I symbolizes their grandparent in the same way the VII symbolizes the native's grandparents initially.
X - Children, VII from the parents of the native

*One should take note that the parents become ''parents'' of the partner, and the places of the parents are opposed to each other and so derive in the exact same way. What I mean is that the parents of the partner are the VII from parents of the native (and vice versa, also note that this indicates some partnership) and square the appropriate partner in the exact same way. It is inappropriate to express this with derivatives as it makes one dizzy.

There is no contradiction with derivative places as long as one assigns all important significators at the angles. It is impossible to make a satisfying symmetry with the succedents and declines as Valens and Asclepius tried out.

I think Valens said VII for Living Abroad, because after you move abroad in order to return home you will have to again ''move abroad''. So you will have to again derive and move to the seventh place from the seventh.

Notice that Ptolemy and Valens use the V and XI for children as well (following Petosiris). For XI is V from the VII.

Notice that they also use VI and XII for slaves, because XII is VI from the wife.

Notice that V (generosity) and XI (emancipation of slaves) are derived.

The only places that cannot be derived are the intrusions of alien doctrines like VIII = death and III = siblings.

All astrologers who have used the 4th as indicating parents and 7th as indicating affairs have been doing derivative symbolism all time without even realising.

This is a brilliant and intentional scheme.

Btw, Valens 2:40 does contain remnant delineations of using the I related to siblings. He, Firmicus and/or Rhetorius say that the Sun in I indicates few brothers, Saturn in VII kills the brothers or that Saturn in I produces an outcry (related to birth). This delineations make no sense unless one thinks that place is related to Brothers. Valens speaks of the place of brothers as III, but he also says that some astrologers calculated the Place of Brothers (that is they used a Lot from Saturn to Jupiter or reverse).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
amymaddalozzo



Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 81

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:12 pm    Post subject: Derivative houses Reply with quote

Very Interesting post Not sure how slaves fit into today's world!! I do not have any siblings and I was told it was because Rahu is in my 3rd house, opposed mercury and square natal moon. If the 7th house is my life towards the end, it should be interesting--uranus in the 7th house. In my chart, the 8th and 9th houses seem to be connected. Sun is technically in 8th but close to the cusp of the 9th. Ruler of the 8th house, the moon is in SaG Square mercury in the 9th AMY
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 934
Location: Canada

Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Petosiris, I am curious to learn whether you think the planetary joys had anything to do with thematic house meanings, and if so, what these meanings might be.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
petosiris



Joined: 08 Oct 2017
Posts: 87

Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

waybread wrote:
Petosiris, I am curious to learn whether you think the planetary joys had anything to do with thematic house meanings, and if so, what these meanings might be.


Yes, they certainly had. I can quote a few passages to illustrate.

Valens on the III ''If the moon is in this Place, is assigned the Ascendant or the Lot, and is in its proper face, the native will be great and a master of many good things. He will rule a city; he will give orders to many men; he will be obeyed; and he will be master of treasuries.'' - Riley's translation

Rhetorius on Mercury in the VI and XII using translation by James Holden
''But Mercury being in the 6th by night, matutine, makes interpreters, fishermen, bird-catchers, and carvers,...'' Mercury + Mars

''The star of Mercury being in this house will produce grammarians, orators, geometers, [and] students that have used words, or those becoming benefactors of men in distress through speech, and those who are considerably wiser than the rest...'' - quite unexpected for XII house placement, but not as much when you consider that it is Mercury + Saturn, which are harmonious according to Valens

Valens gives delineations for the IX which includes kingship, divination, astrology, mystical matters which are all natural significations of the Sun. Pseudo-Pythagoras has premonitions for the Sun as well for example.

I personally heavily disagree with the delineations for the III and IX, especially compared to ''benefics do not good'' in II according to the two of them. Valens and Rhetorius relied on some source or idea that heavily emphasized joys and aspects to the ascendant.

As you see, Hermes has life and livelihood to the VIII and the dangerous travel to the IX (Ptolemy and Valens have all declines indicating travel btw). Nechepso and Petosiris thought that the III and IX are inoperative places and productive of crises and also excluded the Sun and the Moon from predomination in them. I can't reconcile that scheme with the joys. It is absurd for the Sun or the Moon to be ''rejoicing'' and to not be available for Predominator.

There are also many statements and delineations by Dorotheus and Valens where the III and IX are clearly bad houses, most clearly illustrated by their trigon ruler technique.

It is possible that children was associated with V house because of Venus joy. I think Hermes had the joys (and probably some text attributed to him was the originator), but he took other considerations into account as well - angularity and the diurnal scheme.

The IX is usually good and VIII is usually very bad in Jyotish, so some joy or configurations to the I scheme text must have gotten there too.

From my experience, this scheme might have been accepted too quickly without proper examination. I personally find the older approach more reliable and I recommend everyone to try out and experiment with the following scheme - (I, X,) VII, IV, XI, V, II, VIII as best to least good and IX, III, (VI and XII) as weak, bad and very bad respectively. I can't emphasize enough how much whole sign angularity seems to predominate over configurations to the ascendant more than the later authors did.

I am not sure why is there so much focus and elaboration of the twelve places by the later authors when you can just do lots. If you attach more significance to places by lots, you have more chance to account and explain multiple birth differences. If they had only planets and signs, they can do whole sign calculations, as it is discussed here - http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9952&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15 .
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 934
Location: Canada

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What am I missing? Mercury joys in the first house. Mars joys in the 6th house.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary1e.html

Also, what confidence do you place in acient sources known only or primarily from second-hand reports? So far as I know, for example, nothing of Asclepius survives in the original, and the name sounds suspiciously like a pen-name or pseudonym.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
petosiris



Joined: 08 Oct 2017
Posts: 87

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you elaborate on your question as I do not understand your intention? As far as I remember you reject "anglophone Hellenistic astrology" because of some reasons.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 934
Location: Canada

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't reject "anglophone Hellenistic astrology."

There is no point in rejecting anything backed up by reasonable evidence.

I do have a few quibbles about certain assumptions or beliefs held by some astrologers about this period.

As I've mentioned to you elsewhere, I do have a lot of interest in the origins of horoscopic astrology. I am particularly interested in the origins of the thematic meanings of houses, because most of these do not follow logically from discussions of houses based on angularity and the relation of a given house to the ascendant.

Arguably horoscopic astrology starts with the inclusion of the ascendant and houses into an astrology that was essentially Babylonian in origin. The Babylonians did not use houses.

My question referred to the planetary joys. You responded with comments that corresponded to the moon joying in the third house, and the sun in the 9th house. So far, so good. I was puzzled by your discussion of Mercury in houses other than the first (its joy,) and in association with the 6th, where Mars joys.

I am impressed by your research Petosiris. Just treading cautiously.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wade



Joined: 20 Jul 2013
Posts: 84
Location: London, UK

Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

waybread wrote:
My question referred to the planetary joys. You responded with comments that corresponded to the moon joying in the third house, and the sun in the 9th house. So far, so good. I was puzzled by your discussion of Mercury in houses other than the first (its joy,) and in association with the 6th, where Mars joys.


what petosiris was demonstrating was how the interpretations of a planet in a house are co-mingled with an interpretation of what planet joys in that house.

petosiris wrote:
Rhetorius on Mercury in the VI and XII using translation by James Holden
''But Mercury being in the 6th by night, matutine, makes interpreters, fishermen, bird-catchers, and carvers,...'' Mercury + Mars


so we're combining Mercury's placement in the 6th with that being the house of Mars' joy, bringing together skill from Mercury and images of 'hunt' from Mars.

petosiris wrote:
''The star of Mercury being in this house will produce grammarians, orators, geometers, [and] students that have used words, or those becoming benefactors of men in distress through speech, and those who are considerably wiser than the rest...'' - quite unexpected for XII house placement, but not as much when you consider that it is Mercury + Saturn, which are harmonious according to Valens


here we're combining the two melancholic planets, both associated (as is the melancholic humor) with knowledge and wisdom, and their placements in the natal chart speak to the native's capacity for the same. one of the classic indicators of a first-rate mind is the trine, sextile or conjunction of Mercury to/with Saturn, particularly if Mercury is in Aquarius (if I'm remembering correctly). but to have Mercury in the house of Saturn's joy might be another way to 'connect' their associations to identify a learned and sagacious mind. you'll notice some choice phrasing like, 'benefactors of men in distress through speech' -- that's very clear Mercury/Saturn/12th language.

it's an interesting technique, though I'd err on the side of some skepticism as to its reliability in practice. there are so many more important factors in the determination of a planet's expression and what it inclines a wo/man toward or against that it almost seems like a tertiary consideration: a gentle 'fertilizer' should other key placements in the chart agree, but not wholly reliable in and of itself. but, it should still be front of mind as the joys *did* influence the significations of the houses, and if the planet is in that house, then a flavor of the begetting planet (like Mars is for the 6th, and Saturn for the 12th) should remain.
_________________
available for consultations: http://wadecaves.com | hello@wadecaves.com

STA Horary Course - London, September 2018: http://sta.co/london.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated