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Double Planetary Wars? Jaimini Chara Karakas

 
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spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:06 am    Post subject: Double Planetary Wars? Jaimini Chara Karakas Reply with quote

Namaste, Students of the Light!

I'm looking at Parashara and Jaimini systems at the present to establish which is more helpful to me when studying my chart. Obviously, I'm a beginner with Indian astrology. At this time, I am interested primarily in developing spiritual consciousness rather than perfecting predictive technique.

I attempted to compare both systems with an open mind, but I've encountered a problem.

I'm in a bit of a pickle when I come to finding my chara karakas, because I have two planets (Mercury and Saturn) at 7 degrees, and two planets (Sun and Mars) at sixteen degrees. As I understand it, Rahu is used when two planets are at war, and the planet with lower degree/minutes is dropped from the list of chara karakas.

I have not been able to find any references to a double-war situation thus far.

I wonder if anyone here has encountered this situation. Perhaps it is a sign that Jaimini astrology is not for me? Smile

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences,

Pam
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1214
Location: Delhi

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

See the process and example of Sarda Mata in this writeup.

http://www.vedicastrologer.org/articles/c_karaka.pdf
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spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your response, pankajdubey.

Yes, this is the interpretation by KN Rao I was reviewing. I'm still not sure, however, how to handle two planetary wars in one chart. If there is an example here, I'm afraid I missed it.

It is my understanding that Rahu gets substituted for one of the planets in a planetary war. Now we are using eight planets, like this:

Jupiter 28--atmakaraka
Moon 17 --atmayakaraka
Sun 16 50 vs Mars 16 30--winner is Sun. Rahu 15 gets bhratruakaraka, Sun gets matrukaraka, Mars is removed from the list, and can no longer be used.
Now we have three remaining planets we can use for the rest of the chara karakas--putrikaraka, gnatikaraka and darakaraka. But the next two planets, Saturn 7 42 and Mercury 7 23, are in another planetary war, and Rahu has already been assigned a portfolio, so we can't bring him in again to resolve the second war.

What are your thoughts about how to resolve the second war without using Rahu? I have not found explicit directions here. Just for clarity, here are the planets and degrees:

Jupiter 28
Moon 17
Sun 16
Mars 16
Rahu 15
Saturn 07
Mercury 07
Venus 01


Thank you again for sharing your expertise,

Pam
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1214
Location: Delhi

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BV Rama: Studies in Jaimini Astrology : page 9-10

Quote:
16. Exceptions

There are certain exceptions to the general rule
governing Karaka determination. Sometimes two or more
planets may occupy the same degree of longitude, so that
they may have to share the same lordship. A contingency
like this rarely occurs but it cannot be entirely ruled out.

Under such an exceptional circumstance, when two or
three planets have to share the same lordship, a few lord-
ships become vacant and these have to be filled up by
Rahu and the other natural Karakas
.
Supposing Ravi is
the Bhratrukaraka and Chandra and Kuja have the same
longitude. Then all the three planets become Bhratru-
karakas. This means that the Karakatwas, which Chandra
and Kuja should have got, fall vacant
. If in the above
instance, Matru and Putrakarakas become vacant on
account of Chandra and Kuja sharing Ravi’s functions,
then Rahu becomes Matrukaraka and Guru, the natural
lord of children, becomes the Putrakaraka
. Such a
development hardly occurs. Rahu could be a candidate
for a lordship only when two or more planets have equal
longitudes. Otherwise he is not eligible.

The 2nd part
of the Sutra (Saptanamashtanamva) in which Jaimini
defines karaka determination means “seven planets from
Sun to Saturn or eight planets from Sun to Rahu”.
Commentators have differently interpreted this part of the
Sutra. According to some, there are 8 karakas (including
Pitrukaraka which has been omitted in some versions of
Jaimini) in which case the Sun to Rahu become Atma and
other karakas according to their longitude (Rahu's longi-
tude being measured from the last part of the sign) while
according to others there are only seven karakas — Sun to
Saturn Pitrukaraka omitted) and Rahu supplies the gap
formed when two or more planets hold the same longitude.
The latter view appears more reasonable as it has the


support of Parasara.* Rahu can be taken as the 8th
planet only when two or more planets have tbe same
longitude.


So,
Jupiter- Atma karaka
Moon - Amatya K
Sun and mars- BhratruK
Rahu- MatruK
Saturn and Merc- PutraK
Mars- GnatiK- as it is natural signifactor of Gnati(relatives)
Venus- Dara K - as it is the one with least longitude.
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spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your efforts, Pankajdubey!

That's quite an eye-opener. I did not realize it was possible to use multiple planets as dara karakas.

Unfortunately, although it answers my question about exceptions to assigning dara karakas, it still leaves me in somewhat of a muddle concerning my own chart. I did not introduce all of my chart anomalies at once in my question. I suppose it's consistent with the law of harmony that I have a convoluted chart due to triple parivartanas.

So, it seems in my confused mind that to use the dara karakas as stated in your response, I could potentially be periodically experiencing the effects of bhatrukaraka planets Sun and Mars (parivartana Saturn) ruling Leo, Scorpio, Aries, Capricorn and Aquarius simultaneously.

Meanwhile, at other times I could be subject to effects of putrakaraka planets Mercury (parivartana Venus) and Saturn (parivartana Mars), ruling Gemini, Virgo, Libra, Taurus, and/or Aquarius, Sagittarius, Aries and Scorpio--all at once.

I'm the first to admit that my children are no doubt the reason I am here, but that's two-thirds of the chart devoted to children!! Yet some systems leave out putrakaraka entirely, or combine it with matrukaraka. Seems to make prediction difficult.

I realize I may be misconstruing the predictive implications of multiple karakas and parivartanas--which is another subject--in my mind. If you are curious about my tangled chart, my data follows:

Female
April 30, 1956
7:52 a.m. Eastern Standard Time (not Daylight Savings)
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
United States of America


Honestly, I wouldn't blame you if you took a pass. I'm about to give up predicting using dara karakas and stick to more straighforward methods of deriving meaning from my chart.

Gratefully,

Pam
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1214
Location: Delhi

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure if Rashi parivartana is a Jaimini astrology thing.

I generally do not go beyond the effects of Atmakara . For natal work, I prefer Ashtakvarga, Yogini Dasa and Vimshottari followed by transits of Jupiter and Saturn relative to moon.

That is the shortest and traditional way.

I flit between Lahiri and Raman Ayanamsha and never try to be too exact- a year +/3 months is good enough for me.
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spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your insights, pankajdubey.

I have heard at least one practicing astrologer claim that parivartan yoga is solely a Jamini technique, but your thoughts have me re-thinking that claim now. Perhaps I need to start a thread on "which techniques are Jaimini, according to what source?"

I still have lots of questions about my chart, but I think I am learning that simpler is better for now.

Gratefully,

Pam
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1137
Location: California, USA

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Pam,

You wrote:
Quote:
I'm looking at Parashara and Jaimini systems at the present to establish which is more helpful to me when studying my chart. Obviously, I'm a beginner with Indian astrology. At this time, I am interested primarily in developing spiritual consciousness rather than perfecting predictive technique.

I attempted to compare both systems with an open mind, but I've encountered a problem.

I'm in a bit of a pickle when I come to finding my chara karakas, because I have two planets (Mercury and Saturn) at 7 degrees, and two planets (Sun and Mars) at sixteen degrees. As I understand it, Rahu is used when two planets are at war, and the planet with lower degree/minutes is dropped from the list of chara karakas.

Confusion is the inevitable result when a beginning Jyotish student tries to study Parashara and Jaimini at the same time. It is always better to first become thoroughly familiar with Parashara before looking into Jaimini. This is because there are many contradictions and questions in Jaimini, and Parashara is more straightforward and traditional with standardized concepts that many astrologers can explain. Comparatively few astrologers have studied Jaimini. (Though when you are ready Marc Boney's The Essentials of Jaimini is a good place to start.)

You have introduced two different concepts: planatary war and Jaimini's karakas. These are not the same. Planetary war is a Parashara concept that isn't related to Jaimini's karakas. So let's take Jaimini's karakas since that is what you are asking about. The problem you see of shared degrees doesn't really exist because minutes and even seconds can be used to determine the order of degrees.

Pankajdubey pointed out the example of Sarada Devi in the article he referenced. The same principle applies to your chart when minutes are considered along with degrees: (I use the Krishnamurti ayanamsa, but the difference between degrees/minutes will be exactly the same with any ayanamsa.)

7 deg 49 min: Saturn (PiK)
7 deg 29 min: Mercury (GK)

16 deg 56 min: Sun (BK)
16 deg 39 min: Mars (MK)

(From Parashara's Light 7.0.4)

Jaimini is a specialty study, and from my experience it's best left for advanced study by experienced astrologers. Indian astrology (Jyotish) is complex enough without introducing confusing conflicts for beginning students. So I would say for the time being put Jaimini texts back on the shelf and first study and work with Parashara.
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Pier



Joined: 24 Jul 2015
Posts: 47

Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Pam

I would second what Theresr wrote. Parasara is a lifetime study and so is Jaimni, with the vastly more complex nature of the Jaimini text and its myriad interpretation, and translation problems. Jaimini is VERY EXTREMELY involved. Ideally we'd need to master the sanskrit text to tackle it. The masters wrote that many times.

Every translator has done the chata karakas in a different way. So we have to make up our own mind.
I ve been at it (Jaimini) about 5 years which is nothing, and I m using only 7 karakas and with degrees minutes and seconds there are no ambiguity. I never use Rahu there which is a shadow planet.

But its really good to have a good firm long foundation on Parasara before tackling this stuff, I would say. Good luck,
Pierre
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